Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Itten on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:39 am

Actually i think that crossbody training is perfect for bodies flying through the air. Somewhere on YouTube is a clip of Mifune 10th dan taking falls. When you watch closely you will see his body is the same in the air as on the ground so that when he lands he can immediately counter throw. Crossbody training increases the suction aspect of dantien, whilst increasing the power transfer from mingmen. I can't comment on daitoryu exercises but definitely what Dan and Ark teach, and also the condense/expand model of Sam Chin, can produce a body that is rooted on two legs, one leg or no contact with the ground at all. This may seem a contradiction with the idea of rootedness but there is a simple test I use, stolen from judoka. Stand in shizentai, neutral posture, and have someone push you in the back unexpectedly. If you are rooted to the ground you will lose your balance and then recover. If you are rooted in dantien, crossbody and bodyseam connected, then you will move in space but your structure will remain the same. Obviously for combat light and heavy must live together. Yugen's sumo story makes complete sense to me.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Yugen on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:56 am

Trick wrote:Not that I have any plan to participate in such an event, but do you guys know if there is any lower weight limit in Sumo competitions? If there aren't then why don't we see sinewy and less fatted wrestlers try to take on the bigger guys 8-)


Trick... you haven't heard of Takanoyama?
https://youtu.be/p5nX1CDraPo
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Interloper on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:09 am

Itten wrote:Actually i think that crossbody training is perfect for bodies flying through the air. Somewhere on YouTube is a clip of Mifune 10th dan taking falls. When you watch closely you will see his body is the same in the air as on the ground so that when he lands he can immediately counter throw. Crossbody training increases the suction aspect of dantien, whilst increasing the power transfer from mingmen. I can't comment on daitoryu exercises but definitely what Dan and Ark teach, and also the condense/expand model of Sam Chin, can produce a body that is rooted on two legs, one leg or no contact with the ground at all. This may seem a contradiction with the idea of rootedness but there is a simple test I use, stolen from judoka. Stand in shizentai, neutral posture, and have someone push you in the back unexpectedly. If you are rooted to the ground you will lose your balance and then recover. If you are rooted in dantien, crossbody and bodyseam connected, then you will move in space but your structure will remain the same. Obviously for combat light and heavy must live together. Yugen's sumo story makes complete sense to me.


Yes, I agree that the training of the iliopsoas certainly contributes to one's mechanics, even in-air. though without ground there is no base for the buildup of torque, only what the movement itself can generate. It doesn't sound like the original purpose of cross-body work, more like a useful "by-product" of dantien/iliopsoas development. But, again, not saying "no" to what Yugen saw in the sumo-ka, since I have not seen it myself. I'd love to see some video! (Who wouldn't :) )

Mifune was a rare person, definitely among judo men (and he is my favorite judo-ka), but I don't think he had the exposure to the cross-body mechanics we are thinking of. He did, however, have an uncanny command of his center of mass and could manipulate it at will. That's why no one could throw him, and he could instantly take his opponent's center of mass, especially powerfully in sutemi waza.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Itten on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:25 am

Yes, I agree that the training of the iliopsoas certainly contributes to one's mechanics, even in-air. though without ground there is no base for the buildup of torque, only what the movement itself can generate. It doesn't sound like the original purpose of cross-body work, more like a useful "by-product" of dantien/iliopsoas development. But, again, not saying "no" to what Yugen saw in the sumo-ka, since I have not seen it myself. I'd love to see some video! (Who wouldn't :) )

Mifune was a rare person, definitely among judo men (and he is my favorite judo-ka), but I don't think he had the exposure to the cross-body mechanics we are thinking of. He did, however, have an uncanny command of his center of mass and could manipulate it at will. That's why no one could throw him, and he could instantly take his opponent's center of mass, especially powerfully in sutemi waza.


I doubt that he was introduced to the methods here being discussed, but then again I have seen very little detailed explanation in Japan for tanren methods and i have trained there often. However there is a byproduct of close bodywork which judo and wrestling produce, and the torque can be stored in the body for moments. A good wrestlers suplex is an example. I also agree with you that it is not the purpose but a useful byproduct. Much better to stay on your feet or regain your feet very quickly than to fight on the ground. (no disrespect to ne waza, I think its great fun).
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Interloper on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:45 am

Itten wrote:
I doubt that he was introduced to the methods here being discussed, but then again I have seen very little detailed explanation in Japan for tanren methods and i have trained there often. However there is a byproduct of close bodywork which judo and wrestling produce, and the torque can be stored in the body for moments. A good wrestlers suplex is an example. I also agree with you that it is not the purpose but a useful byproduct. Much better to stay on your feet or regain your feet very quickly than to fight on the ground. (no disrespect to ne waza, I think its great fun).


Itten, actually cross-body/open-close dynamic works great in ne waza! But in a "real fight," yeah, you'd want to stay on your feet.
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Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Bodywork on Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:01 am

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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Bodywork on Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:16 am

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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:18 am

I really hope to meet Dan and learn some of "his" internals. Why the fuck is he the only guy who can say he has internals, though? Really, Dan is redefining internals, and that's fine. But you need to come up with a completely different term.

Also, as I have said before, you talk a lot of shit. You beat up a bunch of old Akidoka, or, showed them their stuff didn't work. Then you brought up taking on "world champ" BJJ guys. But, you never said what rank. I have beat world champ purple belts playing by judo rules. So what?

I am very sure you have a lot to teach, but who the fuck to you think you are? Sorry dude. You, like a lot of bad asses (I do beleive you are bad ass) were a body builder first. Is there really no connecton there? Also, you area JMA, so chill the fuck out on a TCMA cite.

Sorry to Tom and others who I respect and who run the site, but, since you let racists and crazys run amok here, I thought I could say what I wanted about this.

Dan, I resepect you and believe in what you do. i will buy you a beer and get you some mat space if you come to Yokohama this or next year. I got some Karateka and some other dudes that might join in. You seem to be a real expert, but I wonder about all these people who claim that can kick ass when they really control the setup. Like: you can't throw me. I'd like to meet anyone who can throw me if all I do is defend. I'm a bit out of practice, but, it didn't go well for two world golds and one Olympic silver in judo. It aint a fair judgment of anything.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Yugen on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:35 am

Bodywork wrote:Ryan, wrestling doesn't teach or develop internals, what it does is teach excellent body awareness and instantaneous weight changes and response to weight changes. So what is perceived as a very grounded centered movement is actually a technical skill.
I have tested hundreds of grapplers and when, (like any other martial artist) they are not allowed to fight or use technical skills? They fail every test of centered movement.
Grappling is among the highest skill levels in martial arts, but it doesn't make you internal.
Training internals doesn't teach you to fight, either. I've not met an internal guy who can fight for shit.
TaiChi against MMA?
Fail!
Rinse and repeat.
Done often enough, they *might* learn. But more than likely they will stupidly *become* external fighters because they couldn't figure it all out.
Culture clash is a twice told tale. A trope easily exploited for the popcorn eating, ticket buying, largely unthinking, teenage crowd.
We are more than likely going to get a front row seat as Chen village starts to ruin their own heritage in making new taichi *grapplers*.
Which still doesn't address the real pressures of, MMA. Your going to see taiji test themselves against grapplers not experienced MMA guys who will stand off, pick them apart, work them, head hunt them and not even let them grapple unless it's under their terms.
.


Dan,
My comments aren't that grappling teaches internals. I was responding to the comment that standard Sumo Shiko doesn't develop cross body connection.

to quote me "Grappling, IMO, inherently builds many internal qualities..."

to quote you:
Bodywork wrote:Ryan, wrestling doesn't teach or develop internals, what it does is teach excellent body awareness and instantaneous weight changes and response to weight changes.


You just specifically laid out some of those qualities. My thought would be those developed qualities allowed you to perceive better what your teacher was doing and your questions to him?

developed internals is being coached and training how to remap those body qualities in connected, centered movement.

I'm inclined to think if you're doing the basic version to develop the core/hip flexor stability and you are slowly lowering your leg in a controlled fashion the body will seek to develop those cross body meridians to some degree even if the person performing isn't coached in it. Thousands of reps, trying to control the leg drop ... I'm inclined to think there would start to be some pulling in opposition to help facilitate that control...

That development then just leads to better athletic grappling, unless coached differently.
Last edited by Yugen on Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby DavidC on Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:30 am

A lot of these arts are dying because of a combination of things. The secrecy surrounding the methods, lack of good teachers, and time it takes to be proficient in using it to fight. Its led to a severe watering down of the internal arts and has only gotten worse because now you have a lot of "internal teachers" with a little skill spreading more watered down versions. It gets worse with each generation imo.

Based on my experience in NYC from the 80's and into the 90's, you had 3 options with decent teachers to learn "internals". If you were starting out and wanted the basics of the internal connections and fighting you could start training with Kenny Gong learning Hsing Yi and maybe some Bagua. After about 6 months with Kenny Gong he'd know you had some internal conditioning by testing your ability to take full power kicks and punches to the torso. You basically got the conditioning through standing practices. Ken Delves was one of his more advanced students. Back then a big bouncer guy I knew would push perpendicular to Ken's outstretched arm in Santi and couldn't budge Ken's arm an inch. That was another test for "internal" connection. You could swing from Ken's arm if you wanted to. Does that mean someone can fight? No but it was a test for his internal connection, if you can't do that in a static test you won't be able to do it in a more lively setting. Internals are basically progressive and you need to follow a certain progression to become proficient in any way. Leave key points and steps out and you won't have much later on.

Once you had some internal connection, you could then learn Yiquan from Master Dong. If you didn't have any basics, the stuff he showed was more intermediate Yiquan level stuff. Usually people who went to him had some training in other arts prior, if not a lot could just go over your head and you probably would not get much out of the training.

Once you really knew something if you wanted a teacher's teacher you could train with BP Chan. BP Chan was as close to the usual myths and stories you get when reading about the past internal masters. He was a really humble guy, his forms didn't really look like much, he rarely talked about who he learned from, and was always willing to learn from other teachers who had much lower skill than him. He was the only guy I knew who literally took out a trained fighter using just one finger. If you trained with him at any time you knew he had that conditioned finger he dipped in Jow. Felt like he could penetrate steel with it. He could jam his fingers full force into concrete without any visible damage.

You had to be with BP Chan a long time before you saw what he was capable of but he was on another level. The guy he sparred with was in his prime and BP Chan was probably around 70 years old or so. I won't mention names because I believe the person he sparred with now teaches Yiquan, but he was a trained fighter, boxed, could wrestle, had multiple black belts. He was the former bodyguard to the NYC Police Commissioner Brown and was also a former corrections officer at Rikers on the "goon squad". Those were the guys who would be sent to break up riots without guns so they knew how to fight. I'll call him J since I don't know if he's still active or teaches but J was known to be really tough guy. He was an MMAist before it was the popular thing it is today. He had knocked out another Sifu in NYC in seconds prior to sparring with BP Chan so he was known to be a scrapper. But when J sparred with BP Chan, who told him to do whatever he wanted, J threw 2 kicks, BP Chan blocked both with the 1 finger of his, and then ended it with with that same finger to the temple.

One of Chan's students was in disbelief when he performed nasal surgery on him without any anesthetic. He was shocked when Chan told him to do the surgery without any gas. He said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't done the surgery himself. BP Chan just kind of drifted into his own trance.

So clearly he was on another level mentally too. But that was also a problem with training as a beginner with him. He wasn't the guy you started the basics with. He was the guy you went to after you were proficient in the internals yourself. A real teacher's teacher. He never looked at himself like that but the stuff he was capable of was world's above anyone else. And that's the main problem with the internals today, you don't have enough guys with the skills or patience to teach the basics, and you don't have enough student's with the patience or time to learn them. After training solo for a number of years, I thought I would go back and train with BP Chan because I thought I might understand some more of what he taught. I think it was sometime in 2002 but I was told he had passed away 2 weeks ago. I left feeling pretty sad about waiting so long, he died with a lot of skill.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded post, I'm usually a lurker because basically the situation is the same as 30 years ago. 30 years ago everyone said they had the real thing and back then most people had not much to show. Does it matter? Not really. We aren't using these arts to protect ourselves from bandits and not many of the internal guys on this board are fighting professionally. But I do think it's a shame that the level has been decreasing steadily. The cultural revolution contributed a lot to the death of the arts and the secrecy surrounding them. Kenny Gong, BP Chan....those guys are gone. While it does take a special person to spar fighters with one finger and have surgery without drugs, it'll be a real shame if people don't at least preserve some of the gold within the internal arts. If not, we will just continue to lose a lot with each generation. I can’t comment on any of the exercises shown here, I mean even BP Chan asked pointers from people who I thought weren’t all that good. I just hope that people do put in the time and effort to rebuild at least some of the lost arts.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby willie on Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:44 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:[quoteI really hope to meet Dan and learn some of "his" internals.

.
;D
Last edited by willie on Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Interloper on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:27 am

Regarding the discussion of anatomy in the process of training... We all know that the old ways of teaching were about intuitive, direct transmission (jikiden) with not much descriptive verbiage. Some things were codified in poetic language that could be memorized, but it was so often esoteric, that the student couldn't really understand it until after he had acquired some degree of physical acumen.

Knowing the musculature and connective tissues involved in internal movement does become useful after one has developed a certain degree of the skill, however. It also helps in creating a teaching language one can use in guiding others to be able to recognize, isolate and activate the correct tissues, to give them a name. It's a combination of Eastern and Western approaches to teaching and learning, and is perhaps a good example of a beneficial hybrid, the product being even better than either and each of its "parent" approaches.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Tom on Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:34 pm

willie wrote:. . . Then to make it even worst, Tom himself recently
stating that Dan had played with my grand teacher Wang Haijun and pretty much defending Dan's statements.


Willie, in that thread I only wanted to add that Dan had played with Wang Haijun (and Liu Chengde), and I did not know if you knew that. You'd been inferring that Dan did not understand Chen taiji, and I wanted to clarify that he had some limited exposure to high-level teachers. It is true that Dan does not train Chen taijiquan.

As far as "pretty much defending Dan's statements," Dan can defend his own statements here and certainly doesn't need my help. That would be like trying to defend Trump's tweets. In any event, I do not agree with everything Dan holds forth about, here or in other places. For example:

willie wrote:Which in that case I believe Dan said that
the Chinese are unable to create a effective fighting system. total bullshit!


If Dan said that, I would call it total bullshit too.

It's a legitimate question to ask how many effective fighters have been created by Dan's Sangenkai school since teaching went public in August 2009. To be fair, most of the students who have trained with Dan have not asked him to show them how to fight like he does. For example, many if not most of the hundreds that Dan has taught are from aikido. The general theme has been to learn the basic solo body conditioning (body work) that Dan shows, and some partner work to test connection, stability, aiki at point of contact, and other internal qualities. Dan's admonition is for the student to go back and fit the work into the student's martial art of choice. With aikido, Dan may offer some specific examples because his own Daito Ryu background informs his understanding of his students' aikido. Most of these students, not surprisingly, find integrating Sangenkai methods back into the art they've trained to be a real challenge.

Only a relatively small percentage of Sangenkai students have asked Dan to show, and then themselves actively pursued, learning how to "fight like Dan does," i.e., from an MMA platform. Dan may demonstrate how his body mechanics and connection drive a MT roundhouse kick, how his aiki on contact help his punch disrupt an opponent's structure and punch through a guard, how to do a throw from Takenouchi ryu as adapted to the Sangenkai methods . . . in short, some really exceptionally effective martial technique explained in Sangenkai terms. By Dan. Done . . . by Dan. By his students, after more than 8 years of seminars and intensives? Not so much. So is Sangenkai "an effective fighting system" in reality? It is probably analogous to taijiquan in terms of percentages of students who get it on a higher level and can work with it under pressure. There are some very combatively skilled people working with Dan, but it's a vanishingly small percentage of the total number.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby willie on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:29 pm

Tom wrote:
willie wrote:. . . Then to make it even worst, Tom himself recently
stating that Dan had played with my grand teacher Wang Haijun and pretty much defending Dan's statements.


Willie, in that thread I only wanted to add that Dan had played with Wang Haijun (and Liu Chengde), and I did not know if you knew that. You'd been inferring that Dan did not understand Chen taiji, and I wanted to clarify that he had some limited exposure to high-level teachers. It is true that Dan does not train Chen taijiquan.

As far as "pretty much defending Dan's statements," Dan can defend his own statements here and certainly doesn't need my help. That would be like trying to defend Trump's tweets. In any event, I do not agree with everything Dan holds forth about, here or in other places. For example:

willie wrote:Which in that case I believe Dan said that
the Chinese are unable to create a effective fighting system. total bullshit!


If Dan said that, I would call it total bullshit too.

It's a legitimate question to ask how many effective fighters have been created by Dan's Sangenkai school since teaching went public in August 2009. To be fair, most of the students who have trained with Dan have not asked him to show them how to fight like he does. For example, many if not most of the hundreds that Dan has taught are from aikido. The general theme has been to learn the basic solo body conditioning (body work) that Dan shows, and some partner work to test connection, stability, aiki at point of contact, and other internal qualities. Dan's admonition is for the student to go back and fit the work into the student's martial art of choice. With aikido, Dan may offer some specific examples because his own Daito Ryu background informs his understanding of his students' aikido. Most of these students, not surprisingly, find integrating Sangenkai methods back into the art they've trained to be a real challenge.

Only a relatively small percentage of Sangenkai students have asked Dan to show, and then themselves actively pursued, learning how to "fight like Dan does," i.e., from an MMA platform. Dan may demonstrate how his body mechanics and connection drive a MT roundhouse kick, how his aiki on contact help his punch disrupt an opponent's structure and punch through a guard, how to do a throw from Takenouchi ryu as adapted to the Sangenkai methods . . . in short, some really exceptionally effective martial technique explained in Sangenkai terms. By Dan. Done . . . by Dan. By his students, after more than 8 years of seminars and intensives? Not so much. So is Sangenkai "an effective fighting system" in reality? It is probably analogous to taijiquan in terms of percentages of students who get it on a higher level and can work with it under pressure. There are some very combatively skilled people working with Dan, but it's a vanishingly small percentage of the total number.


Personally, I don't have anything against Dan
Last edited by willie on Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Tom on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:13 pm

willie wrote: . . . Personally, I don't have anything against Dan or what he is teaching, But he should know better then to start attacking a whole race or linage. This time Ian was correct.
So you say "from a MMA platform". What exact MMA platform are we talking about? When I met Dan he asked me to show him a couple things that I do. So I took
the peek-a-boo style popularized by Mike Tyson. I learned that from my old MMA instructor who is "If I remember correctly" a 7th or 9th degree blackbelt in kickboxing
under Joe Lewis. At that time Dan was surprised that a took a boxing stance and was clearly against it, and did not have it. So what MMA platform? did he
go to a MMA school after I met him?


Dan will have to explain what he means by "MMA platform" himself. He consistently says that his interest lies in taking "internals" learned in his Daito Ryu aikijujutsu training or developed/absorbed from exposure to other things and expressing those skills/attributes in an "MMA platform." He contrasts this with the expression of aiki and internal skill through the "traditional" Japanese art of Daito Ryu Kodokai shown by his colleague and training partner of many years, Roy Goldberg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyd5SZym28w

willie wrote: But the constant bashing is belittling at best.


I agree.
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