free push hands and bounciness

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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:02 pm

wayne hansen wrote:If you can't see that it explains a lot
Willly I can't see much on the dancing in the dark clip except that you are both moving extremely slow
first off Wayne that's not my school so I need to be respectful. the guy couldn't even handle what I was doing and you want me to give him even more?
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:25 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Windy I don't know what you mean by it's not live
I can see it's not a contest

It's not live, meaning that the point is not to negate it consciously, but does not have the body skill that it would act on, and
misses the point of allowing or following what he ask her to do in order to allow her to feel something.

If it was live she would not be given the opportunity to react as in the other demos he did with those having the body skill "pung jin" it acts on
Often I run into people when I demo on them that in trying to do
what ever, they don't seem to understand its a demo meant to show or illustrate a point. I'm sure others have too, one ends up trying not hurt them or keep them from hurting themselves while still trying to make or illustrate a point. Not easy...


That doesn't negate the fact he is changing what he tells her to do when he does it himself
If you can't see that it explains a lot

Of course he has to change while at the same time trying not to hurt her and still trying to allow her to feel what he's talking about.

What ever I see or don't see isn't relevant. If you want to discuss then do so,,If its about what you or I "see" not into it...
So far your tact seems to be talking about every thing but,,,why not talk about what pung jin, how its formed, why and how its used.
This was all addressed in the clip...
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:37 pm

Peng gin is to be felt not talked about
It is the blink of an eye
These guys are just two Rams hitting heads
When Peng meets Peng one should borrow and redirect
Folding is the answer
The girl does that and he tells her she is wrong and gets her to play his game
If it works it should work no matter what the opponent does
The only time these guys looked good was when they reverted to what looked like some other form of Kung fu
I take it they are not only training tai chi
I don't know what you mean by respectfull Willy
If an exchange takes place energy dictates what happens
I don't know why you would put up something so unclear done at such an unrealistic place
What were you trying to show and what does it have to do with this thread
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:55 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I don't know what you mean by respectfull Willy
If an exchange takes place energy dictates what happens
I don't know why you would put up something so unclear done at such an unrealistic place
What were you trying to show and what does it have to do with this thread

Wow, unclear? No Wayne I'm sorry that you don't understand. But actually I'm not surprised either. Perhaps you should get out more?so you assume that that's an unrealistic place, but actually it's not. There is some real tough dudes that go there. that is a Spanish School which is located in the most dangerous neighborhood in the entire city. I don't know if you know anything about the Spanish, but they Pride themselves on being tough.
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby Trick on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:10 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Peng gin is to be felt not talked about
It is the blink of an eye
These guys are just two Rams hitting heads
When Peng meets Peng one should borrow and redirect
Folding is the answer
The girl does that and he tells her she is wrong and gets her to play his game

Wayne you say Peng gin is to be felt not talked about yet yours simple explanation is very clear, at least in my view.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:56 pm

Willy I am not talking about your concepts being unclear
The film is so dark it is hard to see
I find the Spanish no tougher than any other race
I have spent a lot of time in hard parts of hard cities
So what
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:01 am

wayne hansen wrote:Willy I am not talking about your concepts being unclear
The film is so dark it is hard to see
I find the Spanish no tougher than any other race
I have spent a lot of time in hard parts of hard cities
So what

Oh, then my sincere apologies. The video is not even that dark on my laptop, it is perfectly fine? The Spanish people over there are in fact pretty damn tough. I have had all out matches with them there. Including the master himself who is a lineage holder of either mantis or Eagle Claw I'm not sure because he has both.
Last edited by willie on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:31 am

I was watching it on my I pad
It is much clearer on my tv
Still can't see what you are trying to show in connection with this thread
It looks like you are just doing a demo on him
I don't see any point where he attacks or tries to really neutralise what you are doing
The part I do like is how you transition into ground work
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:11 am

wayne hansen wrote:I was watching it on my I pad
It is much clearer on my tv
Still can't see what you are trying to show in connection with this thread
It looks like you are just doing a demo on him
I don't see any point where he attacks or tries to really neutralise what you are doing
The part I do like is how you transition into ground work
it's not a demo, it's live. He just cannot figure out how to deal with me. I have too many other skills from different arts that are seamlessly Blended together. Plus that, he is not really a fighter anyways. But I do have a couple videos of me against their higher level black belts. Of course it's not as pretty .Oh, the connection to this thread was the bouncing part that I tried to explain earlier. There was a couple instances in that video where I hopped to release the tension and then re-established my root
Last edited by willie on Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:48 am

wayne hansen wrote:When Peng meets Peng one should borrow and redirect
Folding is the answer
The girl does that and he tells her she is wrong and gets her to play his game.
.....
If it works it should work no matter what the opponent does


Exactly. Agree 100% w your post Wayne.

I understand the point that you made WW and there sure is a good lesson to be learned here. However, I was not particularly fond of the clip. I thought he just tried to come up with excuses.

Peng should be used with no resistance and with as little contact as possible. Teachers tend to teach their students just the opposite of what they should learn. They get their students to lock up their structure to bounce them away. Then they don't care if they develop bad habits that keep them from doing real progress. This kind of hypocrisy is a very common thing amongst teachers who just wants to be the center of their own show, or teachers who are insecure and don't want their students to reach any kind of high level.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:30 am

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:When Peng meets Peng one should borrow and redirect
Folding is the answer
The girl does that and he tells her she is wrong and gets her to play his game.
.....
If it works it should work no matter what the opponent does


Exactly. Agree 100% w your post Wayne.

I do not but in order to talk about why, one has to agree on some common concepts some of the ones he outlined other wise as now people tend to talk of tactics vs whats going on and why...

I understand the point that you made WW and there sure is a good lesson to be learned here. However, I was not particularly fond of the clip. I thought he just tried to come up with excuses. He outlined why and what was happening how is this an excuse

Peng should be used with no resistance and with as little contact as possible. Teachers tend to teach their students just the opposite of what they should learn. They get their students to lock up their structure to bounce them away. He would also agree and said as much. Again until some agreement is made as to how and what pung / peng is its point less to talk about why something happens or not.

Then they don't care if they develop bad habits that keep them from doing real progress. This kind of hypocrisy is a very common thing amongst teachers who just wants to be the center of their own show, or teachers who are insecure and don't want their students to reach any kind of high level.
Which knowing this teacher it's really not the case. Not defending him or the clip, he addressed almost all or most of the points brought out here as to why, how and when...and also the differences between relative skill of himself and the student.

if some one asked me what peng jin is, I would answer "expanding force" which is spherical in nature, can be expressed
at any point providing one understands and knows how.
He illustrated the difference between some one who had peng jin and some one who did not know how to express it.


It was never about "playing his game" as some have alluded to...kinda a misguided observation for a "demo"
By its nature a "demo" is defined within a context otherwise its no longer a demo..

In that case the girl had no idea from which to understand what he was asking her to do for the demo. Almost anyone can be bounced out just depends on ones understanding of what peng jin is, how its expressed. Everyone has an expanding force that maintains their shape at sea level.

So far most have focused on what they think the teacher is doing, not really what he's doing nor has said which is why I started this with

"Before we talk about the clip he mentioned some concepts giving his viewpoints on them
which I agree with I would like to see if we agree on them.

Pung jin, what is it, how is it expressed in the body,
rooting , what is it, how is it expressed in the body.
Intention , what is it, how is it expressed what is used for. "

Really don't don't see much point in going on..

happy new yr to all, happy soon to be yr of the "dog" :P
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:41 am

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:When Peng meets Peng one should borrow and redirect
Folding is the answer
The girl does that and he tells her she is wrong and gets her to play his game.
.....
If it works it should work no matter what the opponent does


Exactly. Agree 100% w your post Wayne.

I understand the point that you made WW and there sure is a good lesson to be learned here. However, I was not particularly fond of the clip. I thought he just tried to come up with excuses.

Peng should be used with no resistance and with as little contact as possible. Teachers tend to teach their students just the opposite of what they should learn. They get their students to lock up their structure to bounce them away. Then they don't care if they develop bad habits that keep them from doing real progress. This kind of hypocrisy is a very common thing amongst teachers who just wants to be the center of their own show, or teachers who are insecure and don't want their students to reach any kind of high level.
hi Bao, I don't really think that it is intentional, what's really happening is that a student or instructor see's somebody issuing fajin and they become fixated with it and that's all they ever try to acquire.peng was originally developed as only a way 2 start the rotation of the column. Yes you can use it 2 send people away, but isn't it better to finish it with application?
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby robert on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:55 am

willie wrote:There is no real reason to hop. That stuff is just more for fun in a friendly environment.
I don't have many video's of my old style, but this one has some hopping, which i am doing on purpose and I'm sure that if you look at the forces, you can see why.

Thanks for posting, but it's too dark on my monitor to see any forces at work. I agree There is no real reason to hop.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby robert on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:10 pm

Subitai wrote:Ok, so it's up for discussion so here goes....Wow, so many things to comment on here.
I'm gonna refer to guy on left as demo student and the white shirt guy on right as the sifu

1) I know the stomping done by the student is a matter of opinion by some people here, but I maintain it's still NOT necessary.

Student is just WAY over doing it...just watch at ~ :30 seconds into it...complete BS not necessary. If he really needed to move he could just casually step back or to the side without the dramatics.

Sifu gets pushed back himself and does a soft step backward with his right foot at 2:14 or so... NOW THAT is more like it.

Good points Subitai.

I don't agree with sifu's idea that peng jin means you hop around, but if a person buys that idea then the fact that sifu steps back and doesn't hop implies that sifu does not have peng jin ;)
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Windy I don't know if you missed my question
Do these guys train other things than tai chi
If so what
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