free push hands and bounciness

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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:00 am

But @ :43, Bruce also said, "When the opponent expands, I contract; and when he contracts, I expand. And when there is an opportunity, "I" do not hit, "it" hits all by itself," which is contrary to the OP video.


Not really. if you listen to the Op video the teacher mentions that he's not jumping, its a reaction .

" 0.38 He's not jumping on his own" ie "it" causes him to react or its a reaction from "it" however one wants to look at..

He also mentions about the context in which it happens and is used....
PH is not sparring or fighting, he goes on to give other examples ....

to all thanks for the comments, interesting conversation.

I do like eastpaws work and that of his teacher.
they are located in Singapore for those in the area.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:18 am

charles wrote:
marvin8 wrote:He seems to show get opponent double weighted...


In simple language "double-weighted" just means that the opponent was unable to change in response to what was done to him. There are a variety of ways in which one can become unable to change. Those ways can be "internal" or "external" or some combination in-between.


...than expand/push, which doesn't necessarily take internal skill.


Mostly, he is stepping into his opponent, making his stance longer that his opponent's in the relevant direction, "crowding" him (to gain superior mechanical advantage) and then pushing. There is nothing "special" about doing that. It is an important basic technique/principle and it can be taught to nearly anyone in just a few minutes. To counter it, the opponent needs only step back, or move his back foot to lengthen his stance. "Peng Jin", per se, has little to do with it: timing matters. One could argue that to match the incoming step, one needs "listening" skills. One could argue that listening skills are based on Peng Jin, Peng Jin based on fang song.


Can you explain the difference in using internal skill and its effect on the opponent?


The object is to do something that prevents the opponent from adequately responding or neutralizing your action. One approach is to unbalance the opponent. Another is to strike with great force. Another is to apply a joint lock, eliminating mobility and the ability to change/respond/neutralize. And so on. Each of these can be accomplished using "internal" or "external" skills. Skills are a continuum from one extreme of "external" to the other extreme of "internal" with lots of middle ground.

The few that I've met that I consider to be very skilled "internalists", the sensation is that as soon as you touch them, you can not maintain your balance. This is one example that I like (he likes a lot of qinna):



Note that there is no hoping or stomping.

People seem to lose sight of the fact that push hands training is intended to produce specific practical, applicable skills. If one wants to progress, one needs to stay focused on practical, useful, real-world skills. Giving fancy names and explanations to "idiosyncratic" responses that do little to further one's development is to become side-tracked on the focus of "other things".

Thanks for the detailed explanation and video. That was helpful.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:12 am

windwalker wrote:As you've mentioned I too have moved away from using words like qi, yi, and some others to describe interactions. I find it makes the interactions less clear
I do use things like "parallel axis theorem" and other theorems that best help to illustrate what those I interact with feel and react to...

Ok your angle in this tread is how to explain the workings of Taijquan through physics and seemingly PhD level of physics. It seem just as a huge side project that I would think does not actually benefit ones taijiquan skills to a higher level almost to the point that the use of the terms Qi and Yi would benefit students progress quicker, of course the quickest way would be hands on practice- how did the ancient masters get their skills
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:23 am

charles wrote:
C.J.W. wrote: The reason behind it is that, according to him, people with better full-body connectivity and sensitivity to incoming jin are easier to bounce than those who are less experienced and untrained.


That doesn't seem odd to anyone, that the more training one has the easier it is to manipulate them? That tells me that people are either drinking the Kool-Aid or are training, uhm, "different" things.



I guess the missing words here are: "...when they willingly provide their trained structure as a unified frame to receive force."

A trained person with full-body peng jin (and no 'slack' in the joints) is like a fully inflated basketball that can easily receive, transfer, and rebound energy. That's why when you put an untrained person on the receiving end of someone's jin, they'll usually just reel back, stumble, and fall on their butts as opposed to bouncing away or hopping back a few steps (nothing too dramatic like a hopping bunny though) like a trained guy.   

Here's a newer clip of Liu demonstrating on Xue Bin, who is also a master-level Hong style practitioner in his own right.

Would you say that his reactions at various points in the footage (e.g., 2:48, 5:30, 5:48, 6:24, 9:49, 14:50~15:00) are exaggerated or perhaps genuine because he's more sensitive to Liu's jin?

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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:36 am

Trick wrote:Ok your angle in this tread is how to explain the workings of Taijquan through physics and seemingly PhD level of physics. It seem just as a huge side project that I would think does not actually benefit ones taijiquan skills to a higher level almost to the point that the use of the terms Qi and Yi would benefit students progress quicker, of course the quickest way would be hands on practice- how did the ancient masters get their skills


Whether any thing benefits or not depends on the integration of the understanding into ones practice.

http://www.qimagazine.com/qimagazine00.html

on issue 23 there's an article titled 3 rings. Talks about waves and how the energy has to move through the body much like a stone dropped into a pool of water causing ripples. Hands on practice is always important. That would be hands on with an understanding of what one was working on or towards.


Image

https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/


also talks about 3 rings....from the wei shuren linage...
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:17 am

charles wrote:One could argue that to match the incoming step, one needs "listening" skills. One could argue that listening skills are based on Peng Jin, Peng Jin based on fang song.

This may be an example of "listening" skills that are based on "Peng Jin based on fang song."

Starting at :02:
Mark Rasmus wrote:When you start learning ward off, you want to pick a muscle change in your partner’s body. As I am moving forward he is moving. And, now he is pulling. And, then he switches at this point to pushing. So, he has muscle change in his shoulder. Right on that muscle change, there is a gap. I want to find that gap. . . . Once you found that gap and you can get under and break the structure that is a nice place for ward off. Now ward off once you are on base, you can put ward off anywhere in your partner’s body; anywhere they have tension inside their body. But to walk through the door, you got to find a gap. . . .

Sifu Mark Rasmus
Published on Jun 21, 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn-iQsptspA
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:42 am

C.J.W. wrote:Would you say that his reactions at various points in the footage (e.g., 2:48, 5:30, 5:48, 6:24, 9:49, 14:50~15:00) are exaggerated or perhaps genuine because he's more sensitive to Liu's jin?


He looks like he's reacting to the forces that are applied to him. I don't think they are exaggerated, but I don't think his reactions are "because he's more sensitive to Lui's jin". (More sensitive than who or what?)

I think, however, that the forces involved are applied differently than the simple pushes shown in the OP video and Xue Bin's reactions are somewhat different than those in the OP video.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:49 am

marvin8 wrote:This may be an example of "listening" skills that are based on "Peng Jin based on fang song."


Sure.

Right on that muscle change, there is a gap.[/color] I want to find that gap. . . . Once you found that gap and you can get under and break the structure that is a nice place for ward off.


"No gaps, no deficiencies." It can be an interesting discussion, what that means and how one achieves it.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:00 am

windwalker wrote:http://www.qimagazine.com/qimagazine00.html

on issue 23 there's an article titled 3 rings. Talks about waves and how the energy has to move through the body much like a stone dropped into a pool of water causing ripples.


I followed the link but did not find the article in issue 23 (or 32).

also talks about 3 rings....from the wei shuren linage...


From your article,
"The use of 3-Qi Rings is a unique characteristic of the Yang family Tai Chi Chuan of the Master Wei Shuren lineage. The 3-Qi Rings does not exist outside of the mind. However, if one assiduously train the method daily in time to come the rings will feel real and can be used for force generation."

To be clear, there is nothing "scientific" about that. It's a training method that uses imagery to guide the practice. There's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't an application of physics.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 am

windwalker wrote:As far as the sound and accent for me its quite clear maybe due to me spending most a of my life with others who use english as a second language. Maybe my hearing fills in the gaps that others can not or do not hear. I just don't relate to those talking about sound, accent and hearing...it seems quite clear to me and to others native "Taiwanese" that I work with.


For me it is simply volume level. Even at full volume, I can't hear much of what is said, particularly the questions the students ask off camera. It isn't an issue of accent. Slowed to 1/2 speed it is easier to understand, but lots that just isn't audible, for me, anyway.

I tend not to look at things in a literal sense.


If one does not look at it literally, then how aptly is the science applied. The science is just sort of, loosely applied? Science applies or it doesn't. Gravity acts or it doesn't. It doesn't sort of apply when I feel it aught to.

For example it was obvious to me that the ball would have to be hollow or of some type of meatral that would store or could store energy and release it, after all he mentions peng as an expanding force which I agree with,and use this concept with those I work with who are familiar with this terminology in their native language.


Not trying to argumentative, but why would that be obvious? A Newton's cradle is a bunch of steel balls. It demonstrates transfer of momentum when rigid balls collide.

What property of a hollow ball is of importance to the analogy, the behaviour the hallow ball is being used to describe? That it deforms? That it stores and releases energy? (A spring shares that characteristic that as well.) The "average" hollow ball does not have an expanding force. A specific hollow ball that is internally pressurized has an expanding force.

As I stated before, when one uses analogies, it is important to not just assume that those attempting to comprehend the analogy know what specific characteristic is being emphasized or likened to. Humans are not hollow balls and they don't behave like hollow balls. There might be some specific characteristic of specific hollow balls that the human body can emulate. But which specific characteristic isn't necessarily obvious, even to the trained scientist or engineer.

Of those I've met engineers and such their minds seem to be able to entertain what some might call thought experiments, in this case one can test and observe directly what is illustrated or not.


I'm an engineer and I'm all for doing that. But, it has to be clear what specific properties of an entity or situation are being referenced since humans are not spheres, hollow balls, springs, water, meshing gears ...

I guess they need to feel it before their minds will accept the physics going on behind it.


I'm sure that would help. But in the specialized situation of a discussion forum where all one has are words and occasional videos, one can't feel what is being discussed or shown. That specialized situation requires acute clarity of word to be able to communicate clearly.




...first what is a bounce...When the rubber ball hits the ground it gets compressed, or squished, and [b]because it is very elastic, it quickly returns to its original shape....When it hits the floor it has no potential energy, but lots of kinetic energy. Another interesting thing happens when the ball hits the floor. Remember that the ball bounces back up to a height lower than it started, so after one bounce it has less potential energy than it started with.

... if the body is connected and treated as a sphere ie a ball it can have the same aspects and react in the same way. The body is constantly seeking equilibrium affect it, and it will try to return to it


I'm not trying to nit-pick, really.

However, let's look at your analogy of treating the connected body as an elastic rubber ball. The rubber ball, when impacted, compresses, stores energy and then returns to its original shape, releasing the stored energy - in essence, it is a spring. Using that analogy, when the human body is impacted, it compresses, stores energy and then returns to its original shape, releasing the stored energy. What is the the "original shape" of the human body to which it returns after being compressed? What is being compressed? What is re-expanding and releasing the stored energy? And, finally, is the relationship between those things and the stomping seen in the OP video? How is the stomping a direct result of those things?

If one wants to apply a physics analysis to the situation, there needs to be a clear cause and effect for the entire activity, not some scientific explanation, then, "oh, and then magic happens" and then resumption of the scientific explanation. If one is going to apply science to it, apply science to the entire phenomenon, start to finish. How does science explain that the applied force causes stomping? What portion of that explanation include, "he just stomped".

Again, science-like explanations can provide analogies and imagery that can "inform" or guide one's practice. But if one is going to argue science stuff, the application has to be rigorous and complete not applied where one feels like it and then qi happens.


"but that implies that Peng is like a wave. Probably it isn't. " According to ? which is why I had asked about peng jin, how its formed and what it is. What makes the whole body become connected....what defines a spherical body, how does one make ones body spherical how can every point be spherical on the body. What is being collapsed mean ect.


Those are good questions. Theories and hypothesis don't make something true. Is Peng a wave? I'm happy to hear any hypothesis that it is. Is Peng a particle. (Sorry, couldn't resist, inside science joke.) How IS Peng formed? What DOES connect the whole body? What, exactly, does, "a spherical body" mean? How DOES one make the body "spherical"?

Those are all good discussion topics.


Not aimed at anyone in particular:
Real-world situations are often very complex. To study real-world situations, scientists often create models. Those models can then have various conditions imposed upon them and scientists can see how the model responds to that stimulus. Doing so helps scientists understand the real-world situation that the model represents. Often, however, the real-world situation is far too complex to model in a meaningful way. What scientists then do is simplify the real-world situation - making assumptions about what is important and what is not - so that they can create a model of that simplified situation. If too many simplifications are made - or the wrong ones are made - the model no longer is an accurate representation of the real-world situation it is attempting to represent.

When we as students of martial arts want to "model" the human body, how it moves, how it generates force and how it responds to external stimulus - such as imposted forces - we make simplifying assumptions. We do that because the real-world situation is very complex and simple science doesn't accurately reflect what is happening. We can "model" the behaviour by making many simplifying assumptions. These assumptions include things like the body is a sphere, or the body is like a compressible rubber ball. These are simplifying models: the body is not a sphere, the body is not a rubber ball. Can we use the model to understand aspects of the real-world situation - the human body moving, generating and responding to forces? Sure we can. But, we need to remember that these are models of a simplified view of the real-world situation.

If we then apply the science inappropriately or incorrectly, the model doesn't really tell us much at all about the real-world situation. If we buy-into our inappropriately, incorrectly applied theories and hypothesis, we believe because we want to believe, not because there is any real science supporting our activity. To be an effective training method, there doesn't have to be real science behind it, but we need to be clear that if there isn't we don't fool ourselves into believing there is.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Not aimed at anyone in particular:
Real-world situations are often very complex. To study real-world situations, scientists often create models. Those models can then have various conditions imposed upon them and scientists can see how the model responds to that stimulus. Doing so helps scientists understand the real-world situation that the model represents. Often, however, the real-world situation is far too complex to model in a meaningful way. What scientists then do is simplify the real-world situation - making assumptions about what is important and what is not - so that they can create a model of that simplified situation. If too many simplifications are made - or the wrong ones are made - the model no longer is an accurate representation of the real-world situation it is attempting to represent.


Or they either observe or better yet duplicate it and see if either the model fits the theory or maybe the theory is not correct in explaining whats going on.
The rubber ball was used by the teacher in the clip....I don't think of it as a solid rubber ball but more like a soap bubble filled with air or hollow sphere like a basket ball.


You mention that you are an engineer, not doubting you. I've met and worked professionally with a lot of engineers and also in working with them in CMA. Some can not escape their training and are imprisoned by it. It does not allow them to view things in another way using their training. Others can, which allows them as in the demo to say the body acts like a ball "soup bubble" would be a better term trying to retain its shape when force is applied.

The teacher in the clip is also an engineer who also uses analogies based on physics...I could point to other teachers who are also engineers who use phyiscs to help explain what they feel is happening. The problem for some is that there are other things going on that he or they do not mention. For example how does one know the right time to rotate? what is being sensed or interacted with?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E

The body is not a sphere - if you doubt that statement, look in a mirror. That the use and behaviour of the body can in some ways be likened to the behaviour of a sphere, in some circumstances, provides a familiar conceptual image of how the body can be used. But, conceptualizing the human body as a sphere doesn't make it a sphere. The concept that a sphere has a rotational centre and that an eccentric force that is applied to the surface of the sphere will cause the sphere to rotate about its centre provides a useful training visualization. But, that visualization doesn't turn us into spheres.


but it can be used to from a spherical body, one part by the body itself the other part by use of the mind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o

Or as this teacher when he talks about triangle power...Its in Chinese I think most should be able to grasp what he's saying.
at 4:12 he uses a whiteboard to help illustrate his demo...he talks of the contact point and using what amounts to a virtual triangle
one of the lines is created by the mind helping the body to understand the right positions and angles to use.


The article on 3 rings was on issue 27 in that series of maginzen http://www.qimagazine.com/qimagazine00.html
It even has some things written by CZW you might find interesting.

I believe you've mentioned your a chen stylist.
Which might account for the diffing view points, not that I expect you or anyone to agree only that of the chen people I've met in my time
they seem to approach things differently then other taiji stylist. The subject of many questions as to why.

I do find the discussion interesting to a point as long as it remains a "discussion"
contrasting different view points.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 pm

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:http://www.qimagazine.com/qimagazine00.html

on issue 23 there's an article titled 3 rings. Talks about waves and how the energy has to move through the body much like a stone dropped into a pool of water causing ripples.


I followed the link but did not find the article in issue 23 (or 32).

also talks about 3 rings....from the wei shuren linage...


From your article,
"The use of 3-Qi Rings is a unique characteristic of the Yang family Tai Chi Chuan of the Master Wei Shuren lineage. The 3-Qi Rings does not exist outside of the mind. However, if one assiduously train the method daily in time to come the rings will feel real and can be used for force generation."

To be clear, there is nothing "scientific" about that. It's a training method that uses imagery to guide the practice. There's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't an application of physics.


Sorry it was on issue 27.

dont agree,
how could it not be, as the results are physical.

The verbiage used to describe whats happening is something I work on with those I work with using physics to help translate
what they feel doing... agree with It is imagery used to guide the use of applied physics.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:09 pm

I'm not trying to nit-pick, really.

but you do seem unable to follow what would seem to me to be very simple and observable

However, let's look at your analogy of treating the connected body as an elastic rubber ball. The rubber ball, when impacted, compresses, stores energy and then returns to its original shape, releasing the stored energy - in essence, it is a spring. Using that analogy, when the human body is impacted, it compresses, stores energy and then returns to its original shape, releasing the stored energy. What is the the "original shape" of the human body to which it returns after being compressed? the body seeks to remain in equilibrium with all forces acting on it. Any type of deformation or applied force creates a returning force trying to establish its "central equilibrium"


What is being compressed? What is re-expanding and releasing the stored energy?
the bodies resistance to applied force in maintaining its Central equilibrium
By manifesting peng, the body is connected in such a way that it can be treated as spherical shape ie a ball.

And, finally, is the relationship between those things and the stomping seen in the OP video? How is the stomping a direct result of those things?


Any force applied to some one using peng jin from one who has peng jin, can cause a number of reactions depending on level and intent according to each.
The question might be more clear if one understands what is peng jin, how its formed, why is it used. what is the difference between it and structure

So far you've not offered any explanation to questions directly asked , with the exception of stating the students are deluded, drinking the Kool-Aid ect. It would be interesting to read your thoughts on "peng Jin" for example
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby everything on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:20 pm

Most of us haven't experienced something similar. Even if we have, I don't think anyone really has any idea what is happening. Sometimes, in standing post, after a lot of form, I've tried to twitch my finger at my other palm. It literally felt like "energy" went around. After a while I tried using this in very light and mostly cooperative ph, it felt like I "borrowed" energy from my pushing partner and returned it in this circuit, but I could not feel any "energy" sensation. However, it did not feel particularly mechanical (but surely my muscles did whatever firing so the push went around; whatever your nervous system does to fire your muscles: maybe it fired more smoothly and felt "effortless". I can't even explain that one and it isn't even that weird).
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:21 pm

windwalker wrote:but you do seem unable to follow what would seem to me to be very simple and observable


I've tried to state clearly and explicitly a point. I'm not sure I am successfully communicating it.

I deleted the rest of a long-winded response, the long and short of which is that I understand your explanation, I just don't feel it is any more valid than simply saying his "qi" caused the observable reaction or that his "magic" caused the observable reaction. Despite the allure of appealing to scientific principles, I don't find the explanations to be of any greater utility than "qi" or "magic" did it.
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