free push hands and bounciness

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free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:59 pm

good demo with clear explanations as to why some bounce and others don't
and what it means. He talks using physics to explain and demo whats going on...

He talks and demos with those possessing pung and those not. Another outlook might be that all have pung, relative to another.
Which means all can be interacted with depending on the sensitivity/timing of ones touch...pung "expanding" force is inherent
by the bodies reaction to the pressure of the air "Standard sea-level pressure, by definition, equals 760 mm (29.92 inches) of mercury, 14.70 pounds per square inch"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3OI0sx4NyQ

Chu and I do a little free push hands. Chu has pretty good pengjin now but hasn't yet got a great root, so I manage to displace him fairly easily and spectacularly. One of the girls wants to experience this but of course collapses rather than bounces. I explain why this is so and why pengjin is useful.

Finally, I use Taiji's Raise Hands movement to allow her to safely experience what pengjin feels like.

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Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby everything on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:39 pm

that seems like a good explanation of this kind of demo.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:55 pm

The tricks he uses on the girl are pretty basic
He tells her not to redirect but push up straight
Then when it's his turn he redirects for the first two
And on the third pushes straight up when he has set her up
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby Steve Rowe on Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:56 am

I can't understand most of what he's saying because of the poor sound quality and his accent but I must admitI've never understood this idea of jumping. I been pushed by a lot of good people and never felt the need to jump back wards. Even in our 'springing hands' practice we absorb the pulse directly through the feet and glide back so that we can use the skill to redirect the opponent's power with technique.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:54 am

Steve Rowe wrote:I can't understand most of what he's saying because of the poor sound quality and his accent but I must admitI've never understood this idea of jumping. I been pushed by a lot of good people and never felt the need to jump back wards. Even in our 'springing hands' practice we absorb the pulse directly through the feet and glide back so that we can use the skill to redirect the opponent's power with technique.



Interesting I thought it was very clear and covered all the items you’ve mentioned

He doesn't mention jumping he talks about being bounced out, a little different.
you mean that so far you've not met anyone who was able to bounce you out.

Before we talk about the clip he mentioned some concepts giving his viewpoints on them
which I agree with I would like to see if we agree on them.

Pung jin, what is it, how is it expressed in the body,
rooting , what is it, how is it expressed in the body.
Intention , what is it, how is it expressed what is used for.

He talked about and mentioned these giving examples and counter examples
of when things do work and when they do not.

I will see if he will respond to the thread to answer questions directly if not
I might be able to provide a view point providing we can agree on some comon concepts that
He used and demoed in the clip.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:17 am

I don't understand the jumping/stomping thing. However, I really liked the "raise arms" exercise at the end. Unfortunately, I don't think the woman student obtained any understanding of his point or how to do what he was doing.

I'd suggest the raise arms exercise was "all about" intention, or specifically, the difference in his intention versus hers, and why his worked and hers didn't. An excellent example. One can teach one how to do that in a few minutes. It isn't difficult. I've done exactly that with a few fellow students who started out like the woman in the video.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:44 am

Apart from the things I already mentioned about the raise hands demo
He gets her to push directly into his wrists to stop his raise hands
When he does it on her he pulls straight down so she has no hope
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:50 am

wayne hansen wrote:Apart from the things I already mentioned about the raise hands demo
He gets her to push directly into his wrists to stop his raise hands
When he does it on her he pulls straight down so she has no hope
yes, but she could have bent her knees to undermine what he was doing and then raise arms
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:56 am

charles wrote:I don't understand the jumping/stomping thing.
.

There was a brief time when I was taking that same direction. The bouncing and then double stomping happens because a pressure build-up was allowed to occur. So an easy way to not catch an edge is to Just Bounce straight up relieving all the tension and ground with both feet simultaneously.
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:56 am

wayne hansen wrote:When he does it on her he pulls straight down so she has no hope


That makes it even easier. If she knows what to do.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:59 am

willie wrote: The bouncing and then double stomping happens because a pressure build-up was allowed to occur.


I've experienced that, but I see no evidence of that pressure build-up occurring in this video: I see only the stomping. Hence the reason "I don't understand it".
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:03 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote: The bouncing and then double stomping happens because a pressure build-up was allowed to occur.


I've experienced that, but I see no evidence of that pressure build-up occurring in this video: I see only the stomping. Hence the reason "I don't understand it".

It's happening in that video, it's very easy for me to see. The process is so simple it's just that both people have Peng Jin. So both are sort of carrying a springiness with them. If only one had the springiness and the other a good stand-up Grappler, it would not work
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby charles on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:21 am

willie wrote: it's just that both people have Peng Jin.


That's more or less the explanation the guy in the video gave.

If only one had the springiness and the other a good stand-up Grappler, it would not work


And, that's the part I don't understand. People who have "Peng Jin" can be bounced around and hop and jump and stomp when faced with a simple push? Those who don't have, can easily just step back to relieve pressure, make space and maintain balance?

Skilled people can develop internal tensions within the opponent regardless of whether or not the opponent has "Peng Jin". If they are "nice" they'll leave a single-direction pressure/tension relief for that person to "eject" themselves into. When those tensions are released, it can be "explosive", which may include stomping and hopping, etc. If they aren't "nice", they'll inure the opponent where they stand: there is no direction left to the opponent to relieve those internal tensions and something "gives". This is different than a simple single-point or single-direction push, pull or strike.
Last edited by charles on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:44 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote: it's just that both people have Peng Jin.


That's more or less the explanation the guy in the video gave.

If only one had the springiness and the other a good stand-up Grappler, it would not work


And, that's the part I don't understand. People who have "Peng Jin" can be bounced around and hop and jump and stomp when faced with a simple push? Those who don't have, can easily just step back to relieve pressure, make space and maintain balance?

Skilled people can develop internal tensions within the opponent regardless of whether or not the opponent has "Peng Jin". If they are "nice" they'll leave a single-direction pressure/tension relief for that person to "eject" themselves into. When those tensions are released, it can be "explosive", which may include stomping and hopping, etc. If they aren't "nice", they'll inure the opponent where they stand: there is no direction left to the opponent to relieve those internal tensions and something "gives". This is different than a simple single-point or single-direction push, pull or strike.
this is a yes and a no. Sometimes a very skilled practitioner can handle a good Grappler with peng but it has to happen instantly, before the grappler can get a really good grab. If you have 2 Hardened ball bearings and they collide they will bounce off of each other. If you have 2 lead fishing weights and they collide, they will not bounce off each other, the material is deadening. If you have one hardened ball bearing and one lead fishing weight. The lead fishing weight will still not bounce. This is one of the reasons why I changed my entire Focus on training. People believe that the pursuit of more and more and more peng jin is the answer when it is not.
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free push hands and bounciness

Postby Interloper on Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:02 pm

Steve Rowe wrote:I can't understand most of what he's saying because of the poor sound quality and his accent but I must admitI've never understood this idea of jumping. I been pushed by a lot of good people and never felt the need to jump back wards. Even in our 'springing hands' practice we absorb the pulse directly through the feet and glide back so that we can use the skill to redirect the opponent's power with technique.


If the person who is receiving "peng" does not know how to absorb and take force to the ground, and has an unstructured body, then he will bounce. We can't assume that the students and seminar attendees in videos like this one know how to receive and direct force, or that, if they do know how, that they are not intentionally not using a unified body structure or absorbing skill, so the instructor can demonstrate his points.
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