Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

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Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:56 pm

An unusual title for a thread... but watch this vid on Connor McGregor's takedown defence and you can see the similarities to concepts from taijiquan tui shou like sticking, following and listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ZmS5zxFEA



Great analysis from bjjscout - I watched all these fights and missed those little details. Forearm to the neck - nice :)
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby everything on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:08 pm

Really enjoyable analysis. His "ting jin" is through his fingers or forearm, but not to off-balance, mainly to detect intent/movement, then strike. I guess. It's interesting that the "listening" must take place in a split second.

It would be nice to see a similar vid on someone doing this "listening" against primarily a striker. To answer my own question, a lot of the Fedor gifs show this already (where he uses hand traps to make the contact to set up huge strikes to takedowns).

Or an analysis on Mayweather, Jr. "listening" to McGregor or others. I guess there are many out there.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:10 pm

His analysis is great
I have just subscribed to his site
As far as tai chi or pushing goes I think that's a stretch
He just looks like a great counter puncher to me
Sure he is using touch and listening but the jamming force against force takes him out of the realm of tai chi
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby Trip on Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:55 pm

Nice analysis! :)
Thanks for sharing.

Also love your title for the the thread
But, agree with Wayne.
It's not push hands.

Push hands is a training exercise that develops and heightens touch & listening skills.
But the video above...That's a fight.
A fight where he is certainly using touch to his advantage.
Nice!
Last edited by Trip on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby aiasthewall on Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:32 pm

It's videos like this that confirm my opinion that if someone is able to effectively migrate some tcma methods to sport fighting, we could see some dominant fighters.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:43 am

jamming force against force takes him out of the realm of tai chi


This is an interesting concept. I think it opens up the discussion of what counts as "yielding to force".

For instance, if I make a Yang Tai Chi-style Peng/ward off shape with my arm like this:

Image

and I absorbed your force (send it to the ground via the back foot) without moving back, and bounce you back by sending that force back at you.... am I yielding? I think a lot of tai chi people would count that as a 'yes', even though I am not physically retreating from your force.

It's a situation you commonly see in push hands - and can also look like this if they push on your body, not your arm:

Image

Here, white shirt is bouncing back the push from grey shirt without physically retreating or moving away from it, but by manipulating forces within his body.

"Framing" is something that people do a lot of in BJJ. They don't really think of it as 'sending your force to the ground', in the same way that I don't think McGregor is bothered about 'sending it to the ground' either, but there's no reason why you couldn't, if you have those skills.
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:32 am

Controlling the opponent's neck and shoulders with one's "frame" is a very common move taught in many systems -- especially modern combatives -- to avoid takedowns and stop violent punches. It'd be interesting to hear what Conner himself has to say about those analyses and whether or not he was actually consciously utilizing those strategies in the fights.

My feeling is that you can pretty much look at the competition footage of any world-class fighters/grapplers and find instances of IMA/CMA principles being applied in it.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:59 am

aiasthewall wrote:It's videos like this that confirm my opinion that if someone is able to effectively migrate some tcma methods to sport fighting, we could see some dominant fighters.


you mean like jon jones, lomachenko, machida, anderson silva, connor, fedor, demitrious johnson and so on ?
the truth is high level skills aren't exclusive to any martial art whether you want to carve them up by country of origin or traditional/ modern/ sport. they belong to the people that get to practice them under the toughest conditions they can expose themselves to.

perhaps the wider issue where TCMA is concerned is everyone is obsessed with high level skill when they can't even punch and kick (the bare basics) competently.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:43 am

cloudz wrote:
perhaps the wider issue where TCMA is concerned is everyone is obsessed with high level skill when they can't even punch and kick (the bare basics) competently.


I don't know... it's complicated.

This is Todd Duffee , UFC fighter, throwing possibly the ugliest punch anybody has ever seen. I think he lost that fight in round 1... but he did knock out Tim Hague in 7 seconds... so....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Duffee

Image
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:01 am

You mean you are directly comparing a pro UFC fighter to your average TCMA guy? Competent says nothing about style or looks, ugly or pretty, competent says effective to me.

It's not complicated at all Graham, but given half the chance RSF posters, and I'm looking at you right now, will make it exactyly that way.
Do I really need to google competent for ya, I'm pretty sure ugly and pretty don't come into it!

Anyway, of course I checked for good measure ;)

having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.
"a highly competent surgeon"

(of a person) efficient and capable.
"an infinitely competent mother of three"


Don't know the guy, but if he won in the UFC with a punch I think we can say he's a competent puncher.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:13 am

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that you can "win" with terrible technique. That punch he's throwing is clearly technically very bad.

So, there are a lot of variables that go into "competent at the basics of punching". I'm sure a lot of people who are competent punchers that are great on a bag, but put them in front of a person trying to hit them back and they fall to pieces. Then put them in front of an audience, TV, millions of people watching, with their career on the line.... and it's a different game altogether.

So, what I'm saying is that even the basic stuff can be pretty high level. The logical conclusion being that it could be the "high level" things that make you competent at the basics under pressure. Not to rule out the value of experience, of course.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:30 am

Sure thing, it takes proper fight training which takes time and effort. The kind of fight training lacking in a lot of typical TCMA classes. And then there's the tai chi guys who are too busy discussing and playing with the super high level peng shit that's becoming all kinds of a wonderful 4 skills rolled into one.

I think the level you're talking about re. punching rests on the person in front of you and the training/ experience they've had; whether it's good enough or not good enough etc. Most MMA guys have no where near the level of punching that could cut it in boxing for example, not without a whole bunch more training.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:58 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:39 am

True - boxing is so high level in its technique and strategy. It's a very specific skill set. Equally, boxers couldn't hack it in MMA for obvious reasons.
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby Tiga Pukul on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:02 am

Isn't TaiJi also supposed to train for high quality in hitting? Or is it just the wrestling variation that is practiced in the West?
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Re: Push hands takedown defence (Connor McGregor)

Postby cloudz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 am

grahamB wrote: I absorbed your force (send it to the ground via the back foot) without moving back, and bounce you back by sending that force back at you.... am I yielding? I think a lot of tai chi people would count that as a 'yes', even though I am not physically retreating from your force.


I don't really want to open up a can of worms but I think this is the whole terminology, jargon issue rearing it's head.
For me now; yielding is a subset of neutralizing.

I'll try to be clearer.. Yielding for me has come to represent the tactic and or method of 'moving with'.
Whilst it does neutralize force; Nuetralizing can also use other methods other than this yielding/ moving with; the main one rotation (deflecting with 4oz skill) and what you're calling the method your pic alludes to.. rooting/ grounding

For your question my answer would be not yielding per se in that case but still a nuetralizing skill (hua) by way of <insert jargon of choice>
So far we have 3 main ways to "hua" or neutralize force coming in; grounding, rotation and yielding(moving with). One more for when we aren't tactile; evasion.

This/evasion is like yielding/moving with actually (imo) just when you are not in tactile contact.
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