Martial Man - Adam Mizner revisited

[origami_itto]

Not quite clear to me
Are you saying you have been hit by him

Not yet. I mean to say that, since I understand (a little) how he generates power, I know he can put as much or as little behind a strike as he likes. I know I can hit pretty hard, he does a much better version of what I do. QED He must be able to hit pretty hard.

Demonstration of the upper limit of potential power misses the point. The principle is 4oz defeating 1000lbs, not 1001lbs defeating 1000lbs. It's a point often missed.

[Trick]

Was that full contact Karate

Shotokan-Karate, in which sparring/competition fighting is not full contact, the unwritten rule is "skin touch" to head/face "reasonable" contact to torso, but "accidents" happened......For the other forum members that don't know, In "traditionally" Karate strikes are not just isolated arm moves and in fighting a Karateka are not trained to first chamber the fist at the hip before striking

Damage done in semi contact is like a traffic accident
That's why they went to full contact

For some reason it was/is always only the stricken one that was harmed in those "traffic accidents". Some even made a tactic out of causing "accidents". I can agree with that the premise of semi-contact competition is just that so those who just trained for that was not "trained" and expected to take on full on strikes and therefore might get knocked down more easily..........Back then when I was in the game of "traditional" Karate such as Shotokan I would dare to say that non(at least in Sweden) practiced on heavy bags and such but still(for at least the top competitors) could deliver "damaging" strikes as is being asked here on this tread to be performed.........When and where I practiced Karate the focus was very much on positioning, timing, footwork, speed, but never on hitting bags.

[wayne hansen]

Yes I never had much time for those going outside the rules to win
Or as they would say ,my art is too deadly to be contained by rules

[Trick]

I remember one guy on the competition circus back then who was kind of "renown" for striking with more contact as a tactic, actually he didn't have to do it he just liked to do it, he was a competitor at European an world championship levels. He was once asked by a club mate of mine why he did not take up kickboxing, he answered - hell, then the opponents are allowed to hit back

[wayne hansen]

Yes they would loose half a point but the other guy would never know when they would do it again
So they had an advantage when attacking

[RobP3]

some must've watched a different clip,,,ya think

All I can think of, you can see him hitting Kieran, just not knocking him out. Which is good for everyone. I don't need to see him put a hole in somebody to understand the power behind the strikes. I can feel it myself any time I want to hit something.

I don't think you're ever going to see Mizner with a bag or gloves. Generally HME folks hit people.

No need for bag or gloves, just hit someone. It's not about "li" or "stupid power" or any of the other derogatory terms that some TCC guys use to dodge the issue. I've been told to my face before by a tap-tap artist "If I hit you for real, I might kill you". I took the chance, I'm still here. It's a cop out. If you don't have the skill to grade your strikes with a training partner then what sort of training are you doing? Do people seriously believe if they play tap-tap all the time that when they hit for real they will explode someone's organs?

[Bao]

No need for bag or gloves, just hit someone. It's not about "li" or "stupid power" or any of the other derogatory terms that some TCC guys use to dodge the issue.

Exactly. For tai chi it’s about showing that you can use your tai chi principles to do some real damage and not just push around people. You don’t need to hurt someone, but you need to learn how to use your skills for finishing methods.

For a Tai Chi punch, it’s not necessary to use any brute force or even tense up upon impact. If you can not generate a good amount of force from softness and stillness, your tai chi is not completely fit to fight with. Not many can. Most people who have no specific training will tense up. Working with speed and acceleration is not what they have practiced, so many will forget to relax when they try to deliver a good punch.

I've been told to my face before by a tap-tap artist "If I hit you for real, I might kill you". I took the chance, I'm still here. It's a cop out.

And the aikidokas believe that they will break wrists and bones if they don’t throw themselves... There are always excuses for not performing for real...

If you don't have the skill to grade your strikes with a training partner then what sort of training are you doing? Do people seriously believe if they play tap-tap all the time that when they hit for real they will explode someone's organs?

What training are they doing? Forms and more forms of course.

[Bao]

The thing is that...
...Many who can not relax properly into their punch don’t have enough faith in song. But practicing to punch against bags and protections can give them exactly the faith they need. My students (before I closed my group) were often surprised when they managed to deliver a really strong punch. I let them practice their relaxation skills on bags and protections every single class. “But... that felt like nothing.” and “But I didn’t do anything.” They are always surprised that when they do something correct it feels just like they did nothing. The less you feel, the less the momentum and movements get stuck inside your own body. It means that your body is free from stiffness and tensions, so the power can really leave your body. But everyone wants to feel the strength, otherwise they won’t believe they issue strength. So this is why you need special training, to get rid of this need to feel your strength and perform something fast, with good acceleration and yet be able to completely relax and trust your own body. It takes time. But also, this type of practice can give students more faith in softness and relaxation and bring their solo practice to a new, higher level.

[RobP3]

The less you feel, the less the momentum and movements get stuck inside your own body. It means that your body is free from stiffness and tensions, so the power can really leave your body. But everyone wants to feel the strength, otherwise they won’t believe they issue strength. So this is why you need special training, to get rid of this need to feel your strength and perform something fast, with good acceleration and yet be able to completely relax and trust your own body. It takes time. But also, this type of practice can give students more faith in softness and relaxation and bring their solo practice to a new, higher level.

+1

[GrahamB]

I don't think that punching power (if you want to call it that) in Tai Chi is just about relaxing sufficiently. If it was then I'm pretty sure Shaggy from Scooby Doo would have the most powerful punch in the world.



I know that the Systema approach is to reduce tension to produce a powerful punch. There was a really good video showing a systema guy teaching some fighters to punch harder by relaing - I'll see if I can find it...

I think it was this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7sRevcYrQY



But it seems to me that he's teaching them to recruit more of their body into the punch by relaxing so the joints work more fluidly, and in a chain.

I think that's interesting, practical, and a much better, healthier way to move. Plus it's generating more power with less effort. Seems pretty damn good to me. However is that the same as Tai Chi or any of the "internal" arts? I don't think it is.

For the internal arts you're looking at a different way to move the body under control from the dantien. For a forward punch, for example, you'd be thinking about things like pressurizing the abdomen with reverse breathing, using the 3 dantiens for store and release, the back bow, power up from the ground (jin). Is any of that achieved by just "relaxing more"? No, I don't think it is.

[RobP3]

But it seems to me that he's teaching them to recruit more of their body into the punch by relaxing so the joints work more fluidly, and in a chain.

I think that's interesting, practical, and a much better, healthier way to move. Plus it's generating more power with less effort. Seems pretty damn good to me. However is that the same as Tai Chi or any of the "internal" arts? I don't think it is.

For the internal arts you're looking at a different way to move the body under control from the dantien. For a forward punch, for example, you'd be thinking about things like pressurizing the abdomen with reverse breathing, using the 3 dantiens for store and release, the back bow, power up from the ground (jin). Is any of that achieved by just "relaxing more"? No, I don't think it is.

What Val is showing there is good but it's entry level stuff. Effective enough as it stands, mind, but there are many other layers to Systema striking, though granted none of them utilise the dan tien model.
My question with the" power from the ground" is what if your connection is broken or what if you aren't working from a stable surface? Can power be delivered on the fly?

[GrahamB]

Hi Rob,

I'm not sure exactly what constitutes 'beyond basics' stuff is with Systema, but suspect it's something to do with breathing and psychology, rather than dantiens and back bows

As for flying Tai Chi attacks.... I think it would break the 'internal' model if you lost contact with the ground, but then again, I don't think Tai Chi is particularly known for it's flying attacks - lol

[RobP3]

Hi Rob,

I'm not sure exactly what constitutes 'beyond basics' stuff is with Systema, but suspect it's something to do with breathing and psychology, rather than dantiens and back bows

As for flying Tai Chi attacks.... I think it would break the 'internal' model if you lost contact with the ground, but then again, I don't think Tai Chi is particularly known for it's flying attacks - lol

Partly but also deeper levels of relaxation. Anyway I won't take us any further OT

Lol, but how much contact with the ground do you need?

[Bao]

I don't think that punching power (if you want to call it that) in Tai Chi is just about relaxing sufficiently.

Tai chi is not only about relaxation. It's also about body coordination, the liuhe, rooting, whole body movement and more. But I think you knew that right? Or did you think that Shaggy has a really nice tai chi posture?

[GrahamB]

I'm not sure I understand the question... what do you mean? And why are you so concerned with how much contact with the ground?