Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:09 pm

You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.

I see his descriptions in treatise seven to be distinct and simple.

T'i fang - receive an attack directly, neutralize/absorb it, and then release it back into the opponent.
T'i chin - use a push and pull or withdraw and push to sever the root

I'm asking about your opinion of and experience with the skill displayed in Sifu Adam's video. The one I posted, "hwa and fa seven point push".
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby windwalker on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:21 pm

ph is not my thing nor do I care much for it.
Used to judge some of CMA events in the south east US many yrs ago....Steffan seems to have gotten better then I remember. He also trained in CLF under Doc fa wong. I wonder if hes still training it.

In most of the clips they are leaning into each other, if one looks at the position and angle of the feet in something like fixed step ph it would be hard to do anything with if one does not understand the how and why, to be straight.

What the clips show is that Adams method produces repeatable results along the lines that they train and he advocats.
Whether its useful or not is another matter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mumtIjeQ_w
"Ramzi Nabulsi is a senior disciple of Sifu Adam Mizner, he is a Silver in blue belt openweight division in the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Mixed Martial Arts Federation of Jordan tournament, as well as a Gold in the MMA heavyweight championship at the FIOGA world mixed martial arts competition."

He clearly has developed skills, but still leans which the other instructors dont seem to understand why and so get caught in his center.
He has them almost before it starts, and takes advantage of his height, wt and reach,
which if the setting was different it might be a teaching moment for those he interacted with.
It would be interesting to see him with say a Chen stylist along his own level....

Some might be interested in FIOGA

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We welcome all Martial Arts enthusiast ,and Instructors ,Philosophers,Clubs ,Associations and Federations who wish to keep in touch with our Worldwide accredited Grandmaster International membership"
http://www.fioga.org/about-us.html.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby jaime_g on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:18 pm

Aqui wrote:Hey Jamie,

TBH I had a similar thought (concerning the age) when I first saw the video, but Herbert Arndt won his titles within the last 2 years and is currently competing.

The weight, well that's how heavyweight Judo guys look, nothing to complain about!
For me the weight is clearly a sign for Andy's skill, Arndt outweighs him by at least 100 pounds.

Best,

Aqui


Arndt is M7, so he competes against 60-64 years old guys.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby everything on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:50 pm

I like Adam's videos I've seen.

As far as push hands and judo, it's much more interesting to just go down to the local judo dojo. I don't see anything special or not special in that video posted. ??? Sorry. I've also done light judo randori with a (much much younger) national champion and it also wasn't anything special even if I had a video. I didn't perceive any special skill from me or from him TBH. It would no doubt be different if it were a real match. ???
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:42 pm

oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.

I see his descriptions in treatise seven to be distinct and simple.

t'i fang - receive an attack directly, neutralize/absorb it, and then release it back into the opponent.
t'i chin - use a push and pull or withdraw and push to sever the root

I'm asking about your opinion of and experience with the skill displayed in Sifu Adam's video. The one I posted, "hwa and fa seven point push".

To my understanding (?) of Thirteen Treatises:

t'i fang — lifting release technique
t'i chin (jin) — "to lift up"

T'i chin is the lifting energy within the t'i fang technique.

From Thirteen Treatises, page 207:
Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled,
without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?

Answer: To lift up is t'i chin, but this is not the power
capable of raising up an opponent. That power comes by
first pulling and then pushing, meaning that you first
give way before you attain it.
It is similar to squatting
down first to get the power for jumping up. In physics,
the equation is Force x Speed x Time = Energy.

Adam does hua (Transforming/Neutralising) and fa (Releasing/Issuing), which t'i fang is a unique, uprooting subset that includes lifting. Adam demonstrates a higher level, when hua and fa "become one" at the point of contact.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:23 pm

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.

I see his descriptions in treatise seven to be distinct and simple.

t'i fang - receive an attack directly, neutralize/absorb it, and then release it back into the opponent.
t'i chin - use a push and pull or withdraw and push to sever the root

I'm asking about your opinion of and experience with the skill displayed in Sifu Adam's video. The one I posted, "hwa and fa seven point push".

To my understanding (?) of Thirteen Treatises:

t'i fang — lifting release technique
t'i chin (jin) — "to lift up"

T'i chin is the lifting energy within the t'i fang technique.

From Thirteen Treatises, page 207:
Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled,
without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?

Answer: To lift up is t'i chin, but this is not the power
capable of raising up an opponent. That power comes by
first pulling and then pushing, meaning that you first
give way before you attain it.
It is similar to squatting
down first to get the power for jumping up. In physics,
the equation is Force x Speed x Time = Energy.

Adam does hua (Transforming/Neutralising) and fa (Releasing/Issuing), which t'i fang is a unique, uprooting subset that includes lifting. Adam demonstrates a higher level, when hua and fa "become one" at the point of contact.



It may just be my poor understanding, but these passages do not seem to be describing the same thing and they're mentioned over ten pages apart, always separately, even in the questions at the end (which don't seem to shed much light on this)

This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in empti-
ness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdo-
men, which has absorbed and stored the force of his at-
tack, uses this power to attack his retreat.
This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang.
Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance.


page 54 wrote:T'ai Chi Ch'uan is also excellent in its application of
t'i chin (uprooting strength). Uprooting can cause an op-
ponent's feet to leave the ground, resulting in his fall.
The Classics say, "By alternating the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed
and the object is quickly
toppled without a doubt."


T'i Fang = receive and release (force)
T'i Chin = pull and push (to sever root)

I don't speak Chinese, but perhaps the T'i in T'i Fang and the T'i in T'i Chin are different?
Apparently it can mean lift or extract, let out, mention? To me the text seems very clearly to be talking about two very different skills. T'i Fang is a passive response that occurs when conditions are right, while T'i Chin is an active process that seeks to create a condition.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby charles on Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:35 pm

oragami_itto wrote:T'i-fang, according to Cheng Man Ching... is hua and fa. Ref Treatise Seven: Strength and Physics in Cheng Tzu's 13 Chapters (p48-49 in the Ben Lo translation).


Thanks for your response.

I've re-read Treatise Seven. Regardless of the skills he did or didn't have, I'm not a fan of CMC's writing. A detailed discussion of what I don't like about it isn't particularly productive.

I've never studied CMC style and am not familiar with the Seven Point Push.

The basic principle of having an opponent push, neutralize the push, then attack is a common one, as is forcing an opponent to react then capitalizing on his reaction. A simple example that I was taught in one variant of Yang style is in the "ji" of Grasp Bird's Tail. Rather than pushing uniformly with both hands, alternate the push between hands, oscillating the opponent. As the opponent attempts to correct for the push on one side, by pushing back, you release that side having him push on nothing ("fall into emptiness"), while you push on the opposite side, to repeat on that side. It is a quick series of subtle actions that can't readily be seen but unbalances the opponent/partner.

Having read the Treatise, I watched Mr. Mizner's video two more times. The first time, I watched and listened to what he had to say. I find no fault in what he said or in his approach, particularly. He appears to have skills but I find it impossible to gauge his skill level when the partner has such ridiculous exaggerated responses. What he has shown, if working with a cooperative partner, as he is, isn't particularly difficult to do.

The second repeat watching I watched the students behind him. Largely, they were not neutralizing, instead, just copying the choreography.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:45 pm

oragami_itto wrote:It may just be my poor understanding, but these passages do not seem to be describing the same thing and they're mentioned over ten pages apart, always separately, even in the questions at the end (which don't seem to shed much light on this)

This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in empti-
ness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdo-
men, which has absorbed and stored the force of his at-
tack, uses this power to attack his retreat.
This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang.
Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance.


page 54 wrote:T'ai Chi Ch'uan is also excellent in its application of
t'i chin (uprooting strength). Uprooting can cause an op-
ponent's feet to leave the ground, resulting in his fall.
The Classics say, "By alternating the force of pulling and
pushing, the root is severed
and the object is quickly
toppled without a doubt."


T'i Fang = receive and release (force)
T'i Chin = pull and push (to sever root)

I don't speak Chinese, but perhaps the T'i in T'i Fang and the T'i in T'i Chin are different?
Apparently it can mean lift or extract, let out, mention? To me the text seems very clearly to be talking about two very different skills. T'i Fang is a passive response that occurs when conditions are right, while T'i Chin is an active process that seeks to create a condition.

Per Thirteen Treatises:
T'i Chin = "uprooting strength" (page 54, Glossary page 222)
T'i Chin = "to lift up" (page 211)

T'i Chin ≠ "pull and push (to sever root)" (answered on page 211)

Page 211:
Question 6: Is t'i chin "alternation of the force of pulling and pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled, without a doubt?"

Answer: it "is not."
Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled, without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?

Answer: To lift up is t'i chin, but this is not the power capable of raising up an opponent. That power comes by first pulling and then pushing, meaning that you first give way before you attain it. It is similar to squatting down first to get the power for jumping up. In physics, the equation is Force x Speed x Time = Energy.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:04 pm

"To lift up is t'i chin, but this (t'i chin) is not the power capable of raising up an opponent. That power (capable of raising up an opponent) comes first by pulling then pushing. "

That's how I'm reading that and it's very circular. No where does it blatantly say "it is not" as you suggested. I understand it as t'i chin cuts the root causing a raising of the opponent, then fa chin topples them.

There is a difference between raising internally and raising externally, here. The t'i chin is the internal raising, the sort of floatiness that comes from the severed root, which is a prerequisite condition for the external raising, i.e. losing contact with the ground. Neither is necessarily part of t'i fang, because you can absorb and release without severing the root which would cause more of the force to go into the opponent versus moving their body.

p216 gives more detail, kinda

Question 3: "Attract to emptiness, absorb, and discharge;
attach (chan, lien, t'ieh, sui) without tiu ting (losing) the
attachment." Does "absorb" mean to store up the energy
and then release and what does "without tiu ting (losing)
the attachment" mean?
Answer: This is also explained by ti fang. Tiu is really
disconnecting. Ting means contrary force. These two
words are contrary to lien and sui. Because you have
yourself, you cannot give yourself up to follow others.


There it is clearly saying that ti fang is the absorbing and releasing, completely different thing than severing root.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:36 pm

The 7 point push comes from Huang not CMC
the way it is done today is quite different to how it was originally taught
The original version is one of the best combatitive exercises I have ever done
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:20 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Question 6: "By alternation of the force of pulling and pushing, the root is severed and the object is quickly toppled, without a doubt." Is that t'i chin?

oragami_itto wrote:
"To lift up is t'i chin, but this (t'i chin) is not the power capable of raising up an opponent. That power (capable of raising up an opponent) comes first by pulling then pushing, meaning that you first give way before you attain it "

That's how I'm reading that and it's very circular. No where does it blatantly say "it is not" as you suggested. I understand it as t'i chin cuts the root causing a raising of the opponent, then fa chin topples them.

It kind of does, highlighted in blue; "this is not." That power (capable of raising up an opponent) comes first by pulling then pushing . . . There are two powers: uproot strength; pulling then pushing strength.

oragami_itto wrote:There is a difference between raising internally and raising externally, here. The t'i chin is the internal raising, the sort of floatiness that comes from the severed root, which is a prerequisite condition for the external raising, i.e. losing contact with the ground. Neither is necessarily part of t'i fang, because you can absorb and release without severing the root which would cause more of the force to go into the opponent versus moving their body.

That is your definition. Not the definition in the Thirteen Treatises. When one absorbs/neutralizes, one can uproot, attract into emptiness, join and/or alternate pushing and pulling to sever the root of the opponent.

oragami_itto wrote:p216 gives more detail, kinda

Question 3: "Attract to emptiness, absorb, and discharge;
attach (chan, lien, t'ieh, sui) without tiu ting (losing) the
attachment." Does "absorb" mean to store up the energy
and then release and what does "without tiu ting (losing)
the attachment" mean?
Answer: This is also explained by ti fang. Tiu is really
disconnecting. Ting means contrary force. These two
words are contrary to lien and sui. Because you have
yourself, you cannot give yourself up to follow others.


There it is clearly saying that ti fang is the absorbing and releasing, completely different thing than severing root.

It is not different (?). Ti fang is a technique that can involve all of the above (e.g., absorbing, releasing and severing root).

Excerpt from The Tai Chi Book: Refining and Enjoying a Lifetime of Practice (1998):
Robert Chuckrow wrote:T’i Fang

The T’ai Chi Ch’uan uproot involves a technique of energy release termed t’i
fang. T’i fang employs a subtle neutralization in addition to the main neutralization
just described. T’i fang involves eliciting a minute resistance on the part
of the attacker and then neutralizing that resistance. Once the attacker feels himself
falling forward, in addition to pressing the ground with the toes of his forward
foot, he will attempt to lean on you to regain his balance. Ideally, you will
allow him to exert a small force on you, and, just before he regains his balance,
you will let up slightly, causing him to lose his balance again. This time, however,
it is different because now you are in control of his balance and have mobilized
intrinsic energy for a push.

The t’i fang accomplishes a number of purposes:
1. It causes the attacker to involuntarily exert a slight force on you during
the push, making it harder for him to neutralize.
2. It provides a subtle test that fine-tunes the magnitude, timing, and
direction of your push.
3. It increases the attacker’s confusion by nullifying his repeated attempts
to regain balance. He will tend to repeat the same gross movement to
regain balance as he did the first time even though his balance is not as
far off as he experiences it to be or as it was just after the first neutralization.
This sets him up for a much more effective push.
4. Since you are in control of the attacker, the direction of the push need
not be opposite to the original direction of attack.
5. It gives you a chance to practice sensing the attacker’s balance under
controlled conditions.

I note here that Cheng Man-ch’ing told us that there should be three pushes. I
take his words to mean that there is one main neutralization of the opponent’s
initial attack and two subsequent minor neutralizations for fine tuning.

The t’i fang is a method of controlling the opponent’s balance and of fine
tuning that control so that, on the final push, the opponent is exactly in unstable
equilibrium (minimum force).

Eventually, the neutralization occurs over a very short amount of time—only
that required for the attacker to experience his own imbalance. When the neutralization
occurs, the attacker adjusts by exerting a force on the floor with his forward
foot to keep from falling forward. The defender responds almost
immediately, so that the attacker hardly gets off balance. However, the attacker’s
reaction on the floor is based on an expectation of needing to exert the full force
required to keep himself from falling. Because everything happens so fast, the
attacker cannot release the force he is exerting with his forward foot fast enough.
Thus he over-reacts with an excessive force to an extremely short-lived imbalance.
This causes him to be uprooted. The job of the T’ai Chi Ch’uan practitioner is to
become so highly attuned to the opponent’s imbalance and his reaction to that
imbalance, that the practitioner can take full advantage of it by pushing at exactly
the best time and in the best direction. Practice over a long period of time, with
conscious understanding of the underlying principles, is of paramount importance.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:06 am

oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.


I said that I didn't remember which one. If you are interested you can easily google and find all of R W Smith books.

But it's probably this one, if you "look inside" it has a chapter called "uprooting technique: How to perfect it":

T'ai Chi: The "Supreme Ultimate" Exercise for Health, Sport, and Self-Defense
https://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Ultimate ... n-ch%27ing

The Thirteen Chapters is not the best book if you want to understand what CMC taught and how... because this book is a forgery and was not written by CMC.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby wiesiek on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:14 am

..."As far as push hands and judo, it's much more interesting to just go down to the local judo dojo. ..."

.
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:07 am

Bao wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:You'll need a little more specific citation than "a book CMC and Robert Smith" wrote together, lol. I would definitely read it myself to see what you mean.


I said that I didn't remember which one. If you are interested you can easily google and find all of R W Smith books.

But it's probably this one, if you "look inside" it has a chapter called "uprooting technique: How to perfect it":

T'ai Chi: The "Supreme Ultimate" Exercise for Health, Sport, and Self-Defense
https://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Ultimate ... n-ch%27ing

The Thirteen Chapters is not the best book if you want to understand what CMC taught and how... because this book is a forgery and was not written by CMC.




I had translations of 13 chapters from a series of lectures Ed Young gave at naropa,they were great
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Re: Adam Mizner's top student tested (push hands)

Postby Patrick on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:00 am

Pushing hands - grown man discussing about who stepped first.
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