Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:41 am

Bhassler wrote:
The video was presented as proof that Bruce Lee could fight. The only thing it proves is that Bruce was really, really fast, which everyone knew already. Why stand there with your hands down waiting for the really, really fast guy to do something? Why react to a hand feint that was done from out of range? Even if it was moving into range, why try to block a full body lunge by waving one arm in the air with nothing behind it? As I said originally, forward pressure and a decent guard negates a lot of the speed advantage. That is basic stuff. It's easiest to find in MMA, but any real fighting system has means to address it.

There's a reason CMA guys continue to get stomped in any kind of open format, and the propagation of delusional belief systems about the special power of their own shit is a big part of it.


I agree with your points.

The way that Bruce demonstrated his skill does look a little laughable and unrealistic to people who are used to watching MMA nowadays, but back in the 60s and 70s when Karate and Kung-Fu were all the rage, that's actually how practitioners of traditional Asian martial arts used to fight and compare their skills -- in a format very similar to Karate sparring. Just as we have the UFC now, in those days, tough hombres who practiced Korean, Japanese, and Chinese martial arts would fight in full-contact Karate tournaments in order to prove their worth.

Check out some of the footage from the time period and you'll see what I mean. Squaring off at a distance, fighting with hands down, using hand feints in order to score a kick are all trademarks of point karate sparring and fighting; the idea was to be able to score points by landing fast and clean strikes for the judges to see as opposed to simulating realistic fighting.



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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:03 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
Bhassler wrote:
The video was presented as proof that Bruce Lee could fight. The only thing it proves is that Bruce was really, really fast, which everyone knew already. Why stand there with your hands down waiting for the really, really fast guy to do something? Why react to a hand feint that was done from out of range? Even if it was moving into range, why try to block a full body lunge by waving one arm in the air with nothing behind it? As I said originally, forward pressure and a decent guard negates a lot of the speed advantage. That is basic stuff. It's easiest to find in MMA, but any real fighting system has means to address it.

There's a reason CMA guys continue to get stomped in any kind of open format, and the propagation of delusional belief systems about the special power of their own shit is a big part of it.


I agree with your points.

The way that Bruce demonstrated his skill does look a little laughable and unrealistic to people who are used to watching MMA nowadays, but back in the 60s and 70s when Karate and Kung-Fu were all the rage, that's actually how practitioners of traditional Asian martial arts used to fight and compare their skills -- in a format very similar to Karate sparring. Just as we have the UFC now, in those days, tough hombres who practiced Korean, Japanese, and Chinese martial arts would fight in full-contact Karate tournaments in order to prove their worth.

Check out some of the footage from the time period and you'll see what I mean. Squaring off at a distance, fighting with hands down, using hand feints in order to score a kick are all trademarks of point karate sparring and fighting; the idea was to be able to score points by landing fast and clean strikes for the judges to see as opposed to simulating realistic fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nst4V8BKNF0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fESbQlMxydI

At :18, Cung Le does the same combination in MMA, as Bruce. It is relatively common. How is Bruce's way "a little laughable and unrealistic to people who are used to watching MMA nowadays?"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLHFqj_FY8k&t=0m18s

Bruce uses same move in sparring Bob Wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lif1pw8edfs

Photos of Bruce sparring Bob Wall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ott5SYRmg18
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:21 pm

marvin8 wrote:At :18, Cung Le does the same combination in MMA, as Bruce. It is relatively common. How is Bruce's way "a little laughable and unrealistic to people who are used to watching MMA nowadays?"


Not so much about the technique itself, but rather the purpose and intention behind the way he demonstrated it. It was meant to show off his speed with the Karate sparring "Patty-cake" mentality that "if I am faster and can tap you once before you can tap me, I can kick your ass!"

It might have fooled most people in Bruce's days when Karate and Kung Fu were in vogue, but with the development of BJJ and MMA in recent decades, we now know all too well what happens to strikers when they throw kicks haphazardly.

If Bruce were still alive and young, and tried to fight the same way against modern fighters, chances are he'd end up like Chuck Norris in this footage against Rickson Gracies:


At 1:10, Chuck squares off with Rickson and moves in with a side kick like it's a Karate match, and....the rest is history. (Mind you, Chuck Norris was already like a 2 Dan in Judo and had trained with people like Gene LeBell, so he was no stranger to grappling and ground fighting; Bruce would have probably fared worse.)
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Strange on Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:16 pm

"The way that Bruce demonstrated his skill does look a little laughable and unrealistic...."

and ppl tell me, I'M arrogant! :D
pray continue
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:35 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
marvin8 wrote:At :18, Cung Le does the same combination in MMA, as Bruce. It is relatively common. How is Bruce's way "a little laughable and unrealistic to people who are used to watching MMA nowadays?"


Not so much about the technique itself, but rather the purpose and intention behind the way he demonstrated it. It was meant to show off his speed with the Karate sparring "Patty-cake" mentality that "if I am faster and can tap you once before you can tap me, I can kick your ass!"

Not only "speed." As I mentioned, the "purpose and intention" was to show JKD's Progressive Indirect Attack. It's a basic fighting skill/strategy.
marvin8 wrote:It displays more than "speed." Bruce made conscious efforts to educate the audience on his martial art. It shows: distance control/deception, #4 of JKD's Five Ways of Attack, Progressive Indirect Attack which includes feinting (lure), listen to opponent's reaction, control, and issuing force (although I think Bruce should have extended the kick a little more).


C.J.W. wrote:It might have fooled most people in Bruce's days when Karate and Kung Fu were in vogue, but with the development of BJJ and MMA in recent decades, we now know all too well what happens to strikers when they throw kicks haphazardly.

If Bruce were still alive and young, and tried to fight the same way against modern fighters, chances are he'd end up like Chuck Norris in this footage against Rickson Gracies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0FmssS800w

This move was for the movie. In a street fight, Bruce might use a low kick that he teaches in his Fighting Method book. But, it worked for Cung Le in the video i just posted. It is not done "haphazardly," but with strategy and timing: set up/feint (lure), get reaction from opponent (listen), control, then issue force.

BJJ does not dominate MMA today, as it did in the 90s. BJJ specialists can be controlled by low kicks, footwork and punches. Today's fighters have more well-rounded skills.
marvin8 wrote:
Bhassler wrote:There's a reason CMA guys continue to get stomped in any kind of open format, and the propagation of delusional belief systems about the special power of their own shit is a big part of it.

One reason may be that they believe in their "special powers" and don't develop competency in "basic" fighting skills.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:42 pm

Strange wrote:"The way that Bruce demonstrated his skill does look a little laughable and unrealistic...."

and ppl tell me, I'M arrogant! :D
pray continue
levels are stratospheric and beyond hur hur


Nah.....I just like Donnie Yen more. ;)

Btw, if you have nothing else to offer other than snide comments, please do feel free to remain silent.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Strange on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:52 pm

No, not really.
Donnie Yen is more humble



if there is nothing to hide, there is no need to fear challenges
it might be an opportunity to come out and say that you were
overboard in your "laughable" statement; and you really did
not fully understand what you were saying.

that hand feint controlled the mind of the opponent like
a invisible puppet string
Last edited by Strange on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:32 pm

Hmm, I don't know whether Bruce Lee would beat anyone in 1970 except me. He even used an arm-bar in Enter the Dragon. So, I think he'd be just as interested in whatever (works) er, is popular, at the moment. There's no reason to believe otherwise. Yeah, he was an actor; but, there you have world champ Chuck getting choked out.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Trick on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:45 pm

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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:34 pm

Steve James wrote:Hmm, I don't know whether Bruce Lee would beat anyone in 1970 except me. He even used an arm-bar in Enter the Dragon. So, I think he'd be just as interested in whatever (works) er, is popular, at the moment. There's no reason to believe otherwise. Yeah, he was an actor;

Not sure if I am understanding. In addition to the arm bar, Bruce did kicking, punching, trapping, throwing, staff, nunchucks, arnis, etc (some say MMA).

Steve James wrote: but, there you have world champ Chuck getting choked out.

So, everyone should study BJJ, because Rickson Gracie choked out Chuck Norris? All other martial arts are not effective?
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Strange on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:48 pm

Striker use striker mentality to fight
not go all out to injure in fight
once you go in with this mentality to fight a mma/jiujitsu guy, striker will have disadvantage
then how should it be?
adjust mindset to incapacitate the hand and arm, so the opponent cannot grab and hold
fingers and wrist are fragile, cannot take impact.
i know from first hand experience
Last edited by Strange on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:37 am

The question was whether he could fight. The point is practically moot. The argument is whether he could compete with today's competitors. It doesn't matter what I think because he could have beaten me then anyway. Afa armbars, etc., they're far from new. My point was that if he used ground techniques then, he would do so now. But, at the time, people --i.e., in "martial arts" were all kung fu fighting.

But, to me, it's useless to compare fighters now to those of fifty years past, especially deceased ones (er, fighters, not years).
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Trick on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:40 am

marvin8 wrote:
Steve James wrote: but, there you have world champ Chuck getting choked out.

So, everyone should study BJJ, because Rickson Gracie choked out Chuck Norris? All other martial arts are not effective?

CN ain't getting choked out, he's acting getting choked out...you know, he's an actor 8-)
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:52 am

Steve James wrote:The question was whether he could fight. The point is practically moot. The argument is whether he could compete with today's competitors. It doesn't matter what I think because he could have beaten me then anyway. Afa armbars, etc., they're far from new. My point was that if he used ground techniques then, he would do so now. But, at the time, people --i.e., in "martial arts" were all kung fu fighting.

But, to me, it's useless to compare fighters now to those of fifty years past, especially deceased ones (er, fighters, not years).

Okay, thanks. It was hard to extrapolate all that from your earlier post.

Bruce did MMA then. So, he would probably fit in today with adjustments.

Modern fighters find it useful to study past great boxers; just as CMA/IMAist find value in studying past masters.

Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
Steve James wrote: but, there you have world champ Chuck getting choked out.

So, everyone should study BJJ, because Rickson Gracie choked out Chuck Norris? All other martial arts are not effective?

CN ain't getting choked out, he's acting getting choked out...you know, he's an actor 8-)

Yes. That's a good excuse. Chuck should have used that one. :)
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Overlord on Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:04 am

Strange,

You cannot talk to snow man about summer.


I see the futility on these discussions.
不能與夏蟲語冰。
-saber-


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