willie wrote:[
EEEEEMMMMMPPPPPTTTTYYYYYYY FFFFFFFOOOOOORRRRCCCCCEEEEEEE.
When you write it like that it kind of look as a wavelength, you're maybe on to something after all
willie wrote:[
EEEEEMMMMMPPPPPTTTTYYYYYYY FFFFFFFOOOOOORRRRCCCCCEEEEEEE.
windwalker wrote:
As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...
Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.
.
Subitai wrote:Franklin wrote:Subitai wrote:I don't have a problem with what Peter is doing in the video above...I've been doing my own "Empty Coat" version (to a degree) for almost 20yrs now.
The problem occurs (as it does in many things) when you attempt to do something 100% of the time. If you do something TOO MUCH it can be perceived as a pattern and therefore telegraphed. But I believe it is useful when used properly and sparingly.
The part I disagree with Peter is that he calls it Leading. I think that's incorrect...what he's doing is following the same direction. He perceives which direction a push is going and he follows it in the same direction. That is "FOLLOW" not "Leading".
LEADING IMO, would mean PETER picks the direction he wants the move and his opponent would willingly or unknowingly follow it. AGAIN, it can't be done indefinitely...but it can be used strategically.
- When a boxer leans his head away in the same direction path as a jab to his face (literally it can miss by barely an Inch or less) he's doing the same "Empty Coat". I.e. the skill of following the same direction.
* That's my whole thing...because at that point his arm IS LONG or Extended. It's the best time to counter if you know what you're doing.
- wrestlers do it all the time when a guy takes a shot for a takedown and they respond with a sprawl. Or If a guy tries to push or tie up HIGH, it can be emptied and ducked under for a take down. Again, that is following the same direction your opponent is attacking you and allowing thier energy to empty out.
from my understanding of his work-
based on what I know from working out with some of my friends who learned from him..
what you are describing as empty coat is just getting out of the way...
the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through
and as he comes through that door
you follow
and then lead him where you want him to go...
(its not always a dramatic direction change - but is a bit subtle)
so its not just following his movement
I appreciate your answer...but that's NOT what i'm seeing IMO. To follow is not just getting out of the way, it is to go the same direction.
Yes, I might be getting out of the way....but it IS FOLLOWING ONLY in the same direction as the attack. Hence my saying..."The way into danger is the way out" and vice versa. If it were just get out of the way...it could be ANY direction...but again it's not.
You said:the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through
To me that is "attack by Draw"....which is by definition to leave something open to entice your opponent to take the bait.
- I can point out the time segment perfectly where all he is doing is waiting to see which direction or how hes being attacked and THEN HE "FOLLOWS" IT.
- You can skip to ~ 8:30sec
Also, if you're going to tell me that he's leaving his hand out and that he's waiting for me to push it..."AND THEN HE'S GOING TO GET OUT OF THE WAY"...haha, that is still not leading IMO.
1st, that won't work on me or any good player...if you do not stop me by either parrying or blocking...I will not chase hands. I will just attack your center.
2nd, if you get out of my way, (IN THE SAME DIRECTION) then you are following me.
Lastly, think about it deeply...the word "LEADING" would imply that you move 1st.(which again, is not what he's doing) If the principle is: "If you don't move, I don't move" How can he lead? He can ONLY follow.
His choice, if HE wants to call it Leading... Of course he can. It's HIS term, he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying I don't aggree with his choice of definition.
Trick wrote:windwalker wrote:
As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...
Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.
.
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?
Trick wrote:
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?
Trick wrote:willie wrote:[
EEEEEMMMMMPPPPPTTTTYYYYYYY FFFFFFFOOOOOORRRRCCCCCEEEEEEE.
When you write it like that it kind of look as a wavelength, you're maybe on to something after all
windwalker wrote:Trick wrote:
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?
If it was there wouldn't be so many questioning what Adam does in his clips they would know.
What bao. said
Bao wrote:Trick wrote:windwalker wrote:
As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...
Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.
.
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?
I don't think most people understand how to adjust to the intent of the opponent or listen the intent of movements. Most people understand some sort of way to adjust to movement itself, but they don't connect to the center or to the balance of the opponent and most people are certainly not aware of of how to adjust to his or her intent. You can see this clearly when most people play push hands. Instead they wait for a physical moment where they can apply a certain technique or method.
Trick wrote:windwalker wrote:Trick wrote:
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?
If it was there wouldn't be so many questioning what Adam does in his clips they would know.
What bao. said
But a well timed counter/attack at an opponents intent does not have to take the show of empty force kind of force?
I don't think so when it comes to long time pushhanders, I think they very much goes after the others intent,
Trick wrote:You have sparred/ fought a lot during MA career, so you know well about the art of timing. I'm not good with words so describing the higher sense of timing is not a thing for me to do, but as I said a lot of sparring will get you there
willie wrote:Hi Cady, I think that Bao is much closer to the correct interpretation.
I was taught by my first Yang style teacher that that act of non doing is simply realizing that the properties or a natural state of something will automatically solve the problem in many cases. If you evaluate the natural condition of a young tree branch, the tree branch has a quality known as flexibility or pliability. In short it bends to the force and is unharmed. The same as if a blade of grass stands up to a hurricane and survives unarmed. It is also an act of no-mind and not being emotionally involved in the situation, Only the natural Properties or qualities. It has really nothing to do with what Adam is doing or the other videos that windwalker so kindly provided.
Bao wrote:@Interloper, I looked up an old article in black belt mag about Tai Chi and mushin, thought you might be interested.
https://books.google.se/books?id=r9kDAA ... nd&f=false
Bao wrote:I don't think so when it comes to long time pushhanders, I think they very much goes after the others intent,
Well, you said that it was the common understanding and I disagreed.
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