Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Sat May 19, 2018 11:09 am

Interloper wrote:I believe just about any discipline can teach "no mind"... Athletes, artists of all kinds... when they are "in the zone," they are expressing this concept. In Japanese budo/bugei, the closest equivalent of wu wei ("no action") is mushin ("no mind"). They lead pretty much to the same thing: being able to act instantaneously, in the present and without preparatory thought. IMO, practices such as push-hands do develop this, but they seem to do so for a limited set of circumstances.


Agreed.

Chinese have the same equivalent to mushin - wu xin. Though wuji (no differentiation) later became more used as it’s the opposite of tai chi (which means that the things comes into the world by the fluctuations between opposites). Wuwei is something different, it doesn’t really mean emptiness as a state of mind. But it’s still good to start from there to understand Wuwei in action.

Trick wrote:Did it escalate into a fight? Since you had a lot on your mind in that situation as in how to do this and that, that could maybe trigger an attack. I've been in a couple of situations that also involved knifes and sticks, in where as I reflected on afterward had gone in a state of relaxed omnipresent awareness(the best I can explain it)that made me feel very calm and comfortable on a focused way and the aggressors just seemingly came to think of others things and left... I have often thought about those instances,


As I didn’t show any aggression or fear I didn’t add more fuel to the fire, and some people I met indeed just cooled down and the situation didn’t escalate. That’s true.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby charles on Sat May 19, 2018 11:10 am

willie wrote:
windwalker wrote:" More generally in conservative systems, equilibrium is established at a point in configuration space where the gradient of the potential energy with respect to the generalized coordinates is zero."


Hey Charles. Do you think you can translate what Windwalker posted into something that would be considered technical writing?


Wikipedia states, simply, "Equilibrium, in several sciences, is the condition of a system in which all competing influences are balanced." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium
Last edited by charles on Sat May 19, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 10 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Interloper on Sat May 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Bao wrote:
Agreed.

Chinese have the same equivalent to mushin - wu xin. Though wuji (no differentiation) later became more used as it’s the opposite of tai chi (which means that the things comes into the world by the fluctuations between opposites). Wuwei is something different, it doesn’t really mean emptiness as a state of mind. But it’s still good to start from there to understand Wuwei in action.



Thanks, Bao. That is helpful to know. I think I understand that wu wei is more that an "action happens by itself," not by conscious intention. In that regard, it is considered to be "no action." That is how I took Adam Mizner's explanation. Is that correct? In the Japanese internal arts, as far as I know, that concept is not articulated, but IME it is tied to mushin, in that person in a state of mushin will flow with an attacker's energy, and "things will just happen" as a result, without willfully making it happen. While I can see that wu wei and wu xin are different concepts, there is a relationship. They both seem to be a conditioning of the intuitive part of the brain, but wu xin/mushin also requires a high degree of body sensitivity to respond instantaneously with any pressure put upon it.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Sat May 19, 2018 3:27 pm

Interloper wrote:Thanks, Bao. That is helpful to know. I think I understand that wu wei is more that an "action happens by itself," not by conscious intention. In that regard, it is considered to be "no action." That is how I took Adam Mizner's explanation. Is that correct?


Wu Wei means non-action, true. But it’s originally a Confucian political concept, first appearing in the Confucian classics used jokingly about an emperor who didn’t do anything and yet nothing seemed to be left undone. Later the concept was taken into ethics and adopted in Daoist texts, also with political and ethical connotations. I am honestly not sure how I would translate wuwei into martial arts or Tai Chi. There are so many better words to use like “ziran” or natural and unforced. Wuxin or wuji is the emptiness state of mind, not wuwei. Wuwei is doing by not doing, or letting things happen by themselves and not interfere. In warfare, a wuwei state would not enter a war directly and keep out of war and instead just look at distance how other countries destroyed each other. Maybe a wuwei strategy in fighting would be more like always keeping slightly out of distance and let the opponent exhaust himself by punching and kicking in the air.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sat May 19, 2018 3:35 pm

Bao wrote:
Interloper wrote:Thanks, Bao. That is helpful to know. I think I understand that wu wei is more that an "action happens by itself," not by conscious intention. In that regard, it is considered to be "no action." That is how I took Adam Mizner's explanation. Is that correct?


Wu Wei means non-action, true. But it’s originally a Confucian political concept, first appearing in the Confucian classics used jokingly about an emperor who didn’t do anything and yet nothing seemed to be left undone. Later the concept was taken into ethics and adopted in Daoist texts, also with political and ethical connotations. I am honestly not sure how I would translate wuwei into martial arts or Tai Chi. There are so many better words to use like “ziran” or natural and unforced. Wuxin or wuji is the emptiness state of mind, not wuwei. Wuwei is doing by not doing, or letting things happen by themselves and not interfere. In warfare, a wuwei state would not enter a war directly and keep out of war and instead just look at distance how other countries destroyed each other. Maybe a wuwei strategy in fighting would be more like always keeping slightly out of distance and let the opponent exhaust himself by punching and kicking in the air.



nice write up.

you might consider what equilibrium is and means and how one achieves it.
ie not getting in the way of allowing this to happen and understanding how to maintain it.

"Wuwei is doing by not doing, or letting things happen by themselves and not interfere."

"“Equilibrium: A condition in which all influences acting cancel each other, so that a static or balanced situation results. In physics, equilibrium results from the cancellation of forces acting on an object.”

Stand like a balanced scale.
立如平準

一羽不能加,蠅虫不能落

not so easy to do.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o3Pdnv ... e=youtu.be

She must be empty, in other words, she must remove her self from the demo in order to allow “it” to achieve its own equilibrium through her.

good demo of this concept in action


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 19, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6955
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Sat May 19, 2018 4:07 pm

Thanks WW 8-)

The definition of equilibrium is interesting in this context. I’ll have to do some more thinking about this.

@Interloper, I looked up an old article in black belt mag about Tai Chi and mushin, thought you might be interested.

https://books.google.se/books?id=r9kDAA ... nd&f=false
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sat May 19, 2018 4:10 pm

Bao wrote:Thanks WW 8-)

The definition of equilibrium is interesting in this context. I’ll have to do some more thinking about this.

@Interloper, I looked up an old article in black belt mag about Tai Chi and mushin, thought you might be interested.

https://books.google.se/books?id=r9kDAA ... nd&f=false


Peter Ralston indirectly talks about this in clip I posted...Ben Lo, also mentions this when he talks about the power of zero...it seems simple but actually
its not really...one has to be able to get out of the way,,,many do not want to, or know how...some even want to be the way....
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6955
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Interloper on Sat May 19, 2018 4:21 pm

Bao wrote:
Interloper wrote:Thanks, Bao. That is helpful to know. I think I understand that wu wei is more that an "action happens by itself," not by conscious intention. In that regard, it is considered to be "no action." That is how I took Adam Mizner's explanation. Is that correct?


Wu Wei means non-action, true. But it’s originally a Confucian political concept, first appearing in the Confucian classics used jokingly about an emperor who didn’t do anything and yet nothing seemed to be left undone. Later the concept was taken into ethics and adopted in Daoist texts, also with political and ethical connotations. I am honestly not sure how I would translate wuwei into martial arts or Tai Chi. There are so many better words to use like “ziran” or natural and unforced. Wuxin or wuji is the emptiness state of mind, not wuwei. Wuwei is doing by not doing, or letting things happen by themselves and not interfere. In warfare, a wuwei state would not enter a war directly and keep out of war and instead just look at distance how other countries destroyed each other. Maybe a wuwei strategy in fighting would be more like always keeping slightly out of distance and let the opponent exhaust himself by punching and kicking in the air.


Thank you.
I have been watching Adam Mizner's work for some time, and I like a lot of what he does, in terms of his body method. But, he has his own explanatory vocabulary, and it can lead to some confusion. In this particular case, it seemed to me that he was describing a particular condition and ascribing "wu wei" to it. It made sense to me in context to what he was demonstrating.

Taking concepts from outside martial arts and applying them to the martial arts, requires a certain amount of adaptation to the specific physical and mental conditions of those arts, and I suspect they then take on a certain nuance that is also specific to those arts.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4775
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby willie on Sat May 19, 2018 5:15 pm

windwalker wrote:
not so easy to do.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o3Pdnv ... e=youtu.be

She must be empty, in other words, she must remove her self from the demo in order to allow “it” to achieve its own equilibrium through her.

good demo of this concept in action


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

Not a fan. The thread has now officially moved from very bad to even worse.
willie

 

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Subitai on Sat May 19, 2018 7:06 pm

I don't have a problem with what Peter is doing in the video above...I've been doing my own "Empty Coat" version (to a degree) for almost 20yrs now.

The problem occurs (as it does in many things) when you attempt to do something 100% of the time. If you do something TOO MUCH it can be perceived as a pattern and therefore telegraphed. But I believe it is useful when used properly and sparingly.

The part I disagree with Peter is that he calls it Leading. I think that's incorrect...what he's doing is following the same direction. He perceives which direction a push is going and he follows it in the same direction. That is "FOLLOW" not "Leading".

LEADING IMO, would mean PETER picks the direction he wants the move and his opponent would willingly or unknowingly follow it. AGAIN, it can't be done indefinitely...but it can be used strategically.

- When a boxer leans his head away in the same direction path as a jab to his face (literally it can miss by barely an Inch or less) he's doing the same "Empty Coat". I.e. the skill of following the same direction.

* That's my whole thing...because at that point his arm IS LONG or Extended. It's the best time to counter if you know what you're doing.

- wrestlers do it all the time when a guy takes a shot for a takedown and they respond with a sprawl. Or If a guy tries to push or tie up HIGH, it can be emptied and ducked under for a take down. Again, that is following the same direction your opponent is attacking you and allowing thier energy to empty out.
Subitai
Anjing
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Franklin on Sat May 19, 2018 8:00 pm

Subitai wrote:I don't have a problem with what Peter is doing in the video above...I've been doing my own "Empty Coat" version (to a degree) for almost 20yrs now.

The problem occurs (as it does in many things) when you attempt to do something 100% of the time. If you do something TOO MUCH it can be perceived as a pattern and therefore telegraphed. But I believe it is useful when used properly and sparingly.

The part I disagree with Peter is that he calls it Leading. I think that's incorrect...what he's doing is following the same direction. He perceives which direction a push is going and he follows it in the same direction. That is "FOLLOW" not "Leading".

LEADING IMO, would mean PETER picks the direction he wants the move and his opponent would willingly or unknowingly follow it. AGAIN, it can't be done indefinitely...but it can be used strategically.

- When a boxer leans his head away in the same direction path as a jab to his face (literally it can miss by barely an Inch or less) he's doing the same "Empty Coat". I.e. the skill of following the same direction.

* That's my whole thing...because at that point his arm IS LONG or Extended. It's the best time to counter if you know what you're doing.

- wrestlers do it all the time when a guy takes a shot for a takedown and they respond with a sprawl. Or If a guy tries to push or tie up HIGH, it can be emptied and ducked under for a take down. Again, that is following the same direction your opponent is attacking you and allowing thier energy to empty out.



from my understanding of his work-
based on what I know from working out with some of my friends who learned from him..

what you are describing as empty coat is just getting out of the way...

the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through

and as he comes through that door
you follow
and then lead him where you want him to go...
(its not always a dramatic direction change - but is a bit subtle)

so its not just following his movement
Franklin
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:56 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Subitai on Sat May 19, 2018 9:07 pm

Franklin wrote:
Subitai wrote:I don't have a problem with what Peter is doing in the video above...I've been doing my own "Empty Coat" version (to a degree) for almost 20yrs now.

The problem occurs (as it does in many things) when you attempt to do something 100% of the time. If you do something TOO MUCH it can be perceived as a pattern and therefore telegraphed. But I believe it is useful when used properly and sparingly.

The part I disagree with Peter is that he calls it Leading. I think that's incorrect...what he's doing is following the same direction. He perceives which direction a push is going and he follows it in the same direction. That is "FOLLOW" not "Leading".

LEADING IMO, would mean PETER picks the direction he wants the move and his opponent would willingly or unknowingly follow it. AGAIN, it can't be done indefinitely...but it can be used strategically.

- When a boxer leans his head away in the same direction path as a jab to his face (literally it can miss by barely an Inch or less) he's doing the same "Empty Coat". I.e. the skill of following the same direction.

* That's my whole thing...because at that point his arm IS LONG or Extended. It's the best time to counter if you know what you're doing.

- wrestlers do it all the time when a guy takes a shot for a takedown and they respond with a sprawl. Or If a guy tries to push or tie up HIGH, it can be emptied and ducked under for a take down. Again, that is following the same direction your opponent is attacking you and allowing thier energy to empty out.



from my understanding of his work-
based on what I know from working out with some of my friends who learned from him..

what you are describing as empty coat is just getting out of the way...

the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through

and as he comes through that door
you follow
and then lead him where you want him to go...
(its not always a dramatic direction change - but is a bit subtle)

so its not just following his movement


I appreciate your answer...but that's NOT what i'm seeing IMO. To follow is not just getting out of the way, it is to go the same direction.

Yes, I might be getting out of the way....but it IS FOLLOWING ONLY in the same direction as the attack. Hence my saying..."The way into danger is the way out" and vice versa. If it were just get out of the way...it could be ANY direction...but again it's not.

You said:
the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through


To me that is "attack by Draw"....which is by definition to leave something open to entice your opponent to take the bait.

- I can point out the time segment perfectly where all he is doing is waiting to see which direction or how hes being attacked and THEN HE "FOLLOWS" IT.
- You can skip to ~ 8:30sec

Also, if you're going to tell me that he's leaving his hand out and that he's waiting for me to push it..."AND THEN HE'S GOING TO GET OUT OF THE WAY"...haha, that is still not leading IMO.

1st, that won't work on me or any good player...if you do not stop me by either parrying or blocking...I will not chase hands. I will just attack your center.
2nd, if you get out of my way, (IN THE SAME DIRECTION) then you are following me.

Lastly, think about it deeply...the word "LEADING" would imply that you move 1st.(which again, is not what he's doing) If the principle is: "If you don't move, I don't move" How can he lead? He can ONLY follow.

His choice, if HE wants to call it Leading... Of course he can. It's HIS term, he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying I don't aggree with his choice of definition.
Subitai
Anjing
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby willie on Sat May 19, 2018 9:08 pm

Interloper wrote:
Bao wrote:
Interloper wrote:Thanks, Bao. That is helpful to know. I think I understand that wu wei is more that an "action happens by itself," not by conscious intention. In that regard, it is considered to be "no action." That is how I took Adam Mizner's explanation. Is that correct?


Wu Wei means non-action, true. But it’s originally a Confucian political concept, first appearing in the Confucian classics used jokingly about an emperor who didn’t do anything and yet nothing seemed to be left undone. Later the concept was taken into ethics and adopted in Daoist texts, also with political and ethical connotations. I am honestly not sure how I would translate wuwei into martial arts or Tai Chi. There are so many better words to use like “ziran” or natural and unforced. Wuxin or wuji is the emptiness state of mind, not wuwei. Wuwei is doing by not doing, or letting things happen by themselves and not interfere. In warfare, a wuwei state would not enter a war directly and keep out of war and instead just look at distance how other countries destroyed each other. Maybe a wuwei strategy in fighting would be more like always keeping slightly out of distance and let the opponent exhaust himself by punching and kicking in the air.


Thank you.
I have been watching Adam Mizner's work for some time, and I like a lot of what he does, in terms of his body method. But, he has his own explanatory vocabulary, and it can lead to some confusion. In this particular case, it seemed to me that he was describing a particular condition and ascribing "wu wei" to it. It made sense to me in context to what he was demonstrating.

Taking concepts from outside martial arts and applying them to the martial arts, requires a certain amount of adaptation to the specific physical and mental conditions of those arts, and I suspect they then take on a certain nuance that is also specific to those arts.

Hi Cady, I think that Bao is much closer to the correct interpretation.
I was taught by my first Yang style teacher that that act of non doing is simply realizing that the properties or a natural state of something will automatically solve the problem in many cases. If you evaluate the natural condition of a young tree branch, the tree branch has a quality known as flexibility or pliability. In short it bends to the force and is unharmed. The same as if a blade of grass stands up to a hurricane and survives unarmed. It is also an act of no-mind and not being emotionally involved in the situation, Only the natural Properties or qualities. It has really nothing to do with what Adam is doing or the other videos that windwalker so kindly provided.
Last edited by willie on Sat May 19, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
willie

 

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sat May 19, 2018 10:04 pm

Franklin wrote:
from my understanding of his work-
based on what I know from working out with some of my friends who learned from him..

I like his work one of my friends back in the US studied from him for awhile, he felt that much what we did
in Beijing was very similar in concept and application. What I've noted in watching some of his clips over the yrs is that he does things
but does not always talk about everything thats going. Maybe its intentional

he is very accessible for those interested, once before I had asked him to come here to share some thoughts his reply

"I don’t get involved in online gossip. Took a glance though. You might want to mention to them that I won full contact no gloves or protection tournament in China; also judo tournaments, boxing matches, been doing mma long before it was popular.

So something dumb like open to leg sweeps is ridiculous. I’ve done it all; one small game of push hands is just that, messing around within the push hands game. Other games do other things. Fighting is fighting, and very few martial artists are anything close to a real fighter. I am.

Peter Ralston "

this was in regards to some comments on one of his push hands clips that some commented on here


what you are describing as empty coat is just getting out of the way...

the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through

and as he comes through that door
you follow
and then lead him where you want him to go...
(its not always a dramatic direction change - but is a bit subtle)

so its not just following his movement


Agree its not just about following the movement, one has to be able to sense the intention of the movement
with out being in the way or having a predetermined outcome ie "wu wei" before the movement happens.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk9UQvaaBGQ

As in this clip although he talks about timing he doesn't mention much about the timing of what
or how one knows the correct time....

He starts late but arrives first.... the end point is a known, the decision point is the unknown.

It depends on how one is able to understand the decision point of action before it becomes an action
reacting to it after the action has started but not yet completed. In most cases one can not change once a course of action
has been started...This IME is one the things that maske what is called taiji so very different form most other CMA arts.

Real time awareness

Some have talked about feeling the pressure on the body,,,and then using this to guide the next movement.
its to slow, which is why many taiji people practicing ph hands often get run over by bigger, stronger, faster people
even if they've never pushed before.

As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...

Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.

lead the mind, follow the body....leading is following, following is leading.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6955
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby willie on Sun May 20, 2018 12:15 am

windwalker wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk9UQvaaBGQ

As in this clip although he talks about timing he doesn't mention much about the timing of what
or how one knows the correct time....

He starts late but arrives first.... the end point is a known, the decision point is the unknown.


Real time awareness



Musicale chairs? What's next... EEEEEMMMMMPPPPPTTTTYYYYYYY FFFFFFFOOOOOORRRRCCCCCEEEEEEE. LOL!
willie

 

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest