Tai Chi Notebook course

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby charles on Sat May 26, 2018 2:11 pm

willie wrote:... almost every single person of every single Tai Chi Style never ventured past level 1.5 no matter how long they have trained.


Just for the sake of accuracy, Chen Xiaowang created a skill ranking from zero to five. He stated that most people don't get past about one and a half on his ranking scale.

As far as I know, his skill ranking wasn't a group effort of the "Four Tigers", but his own - it's put forth with his name behind it. It wasn't clear that his statement of people not getting past a 1.5 rating related to "every single Tai Chi Style", or that his zero-to-five ranking applied to every Taiji style. Possible, but I'd be surprised if it did. Similarly, I wouldn't expect that he'd presume to correct, for example, Yang stylists in how to perform Yang style. It's outside of his area of expertise.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby charles on Sat May 26, 2018 2:14 pm

willie wrote:I don't know anything about Mike and I'm not sure why you injected that into a conversation.


If you were familiar with what Mike teaches and how Mike moves, you'd understand why he stated that. Knowing that isn't particularly important to the discussion.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby willie on Sat May 26, 2018 4:07 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote:... almost every single person of every single Tai Chi Style never ventured past level 1.5 no matter how long they have trained.


Just for the sake of accuracy, Chen Xiaowang created a skill ranking from zero to five. He stated that most people don't get past about one and a half on his ranking scale.

As far as I know, his skill ranking wasn't a group effort of the "Four Tigers", but his own - it's put forth with his name behind it. It wasn't clear that his statement of people not getting past a 1.5 rating related to "every single Tai Chi Style", or that his zero-to-five ranking applied to every Taiji style. Possible, but I'd be surprised if it did. Similarly, I wouldn't expect that he'd presume to correct, for example, Yang stylists in how to perform Yang style. It's outside of his area of expertise.

Perhaps you're correct. However, WHJ also uses the five stages.
willie

 

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby Ozguorui on Sat May 26, 2018 4:19 pm

Charles, re "Similarly, I wouldn't expect that he'd presume to correct, for example, Yang stylists in how to perform Yang style. It's outside of his area of expertise.".

I recently attended a workshop by Chen Yingjun, CXW's son. There was some chap there who said "Yang style does it this way, why does Chen do it that way"....CYJ just said " they are Yang, we are Chen" .....

BTW, slowly working through your silk reeling videos.....about 60% so far...
Ozguorui
Mingjing
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:54 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 12:16 am

Well this thread seems to have generated some interesting discussion so far. Thank you everybody.

Here's part 3. Last week we looked at the lower body, this week it's the upper body and I throw in a bit of zen wisdom at the end for good measure.

Often the best way to understand something is to look at what it isn't. Take a look at what I'm proposing in my 3 videos so far, then take a look at the Tai Chi video in the recent thread by Marvin ( viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27080 ) and see if you can spot the differences. That would be a good place to start.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6HSBTe ... e=youtu.be

I think week 3 is the last of my 'easy' videos. After that it starts to ramp up in terms of complexity.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13554
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 12:35 am

N.B. - sorry Willie, still no Buddha - he must arrive in week 4.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13554
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby Bao on Sun May 27, 2018 1:16 am

If you work more active with open/close from the whole trunk and connect the movement from the lower back you can still feel the same connection while losing the space under the armpits and bending the elbow more. The method shown here is a very good place to start for beginners to learn about body coordination in tcc, but it’s too restricted and simplistic for my own taste. Just imho ;)
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 1:21 am

Bao - good observation. I think you can bend the elbows until the point where you lose the connection. That's the only 'rule'. It's up to you to decide where that point is. I'm pretty sure that if you've been practicing Tai Chi for 4 hours a day for 40 years, that point will be very different for somebody who is just starting out.

Equally, I think it's (usually) pretty easy to spot people who lose connection to the lower arm and don't notice, or don't think that matters.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 1:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13554
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby Bao on Sun May 27, 2018 1:43 am

GrahamB wrote:Bao - good observation. I think you can bend the elbows until the point where you lose the connection. That's the only 'rule'. It's up to you to decide where that point is. I'm pretty sure that if you've been practicing Tai Chi for 4 hours a day for 40 years, that point will be very different for somebody who is just starting out.


Not 40 years, only 31 a short time compared to some of the practitioners here. Not 4 hours every days. Some years I might have come up to those figures, but mostly not.

I absolutely agree that you have to start from somewhere. But the thing is that sometimes things don’t come by themselves if you don’t have proper guidance. Ideas of movement easily get stuck in the body and will stay if you are not shown another idea. It’s about what could be called a learned behavior. I am surprised when I see many Yang stylists, some long time practitioners, +40 or 50 years, but they still move like they were stuck in inside their bodies. This is not how T’ai Chi should be. The movements should be done with a feeling of being unrestricted and have vitality. The whole body should feel alive.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby charles on Sun May 27, 2018 6:35 am

GrahamB wrote: I think you can bend the elbows until the point where you lose the connection. That's the only 'rule'.


In your first three videos, you have stressed the feeling of being connected. One teacher I know isn't in favour of standing or sitting meditation because it promotes people assigning specific things/abilities to the various subjective feelings they have during the practice. His belief is that that tends to produce people who have convinced themselves that because they feel this or that, they have a specific ability or skill. Frequently, he finds, in the real world, outside of their heads and beliefs, they do not have those skills or abilities when subjected to objective testing: they are fooling themselves.

The problem, pedagogically, with starting beginners with "feelings" is that they can feel all sorts of things that don't objectively mean anything. For example, one can "feel connected", and, based on those subjective feelings, convince oneself that one is "connected", when one is not by any objective standard.

Beyond feeling "something" to which one has assigned the term "connected", what does it mean, practically, objectively, to be "connected"? And, what instruction or practice can be used to explicitly help a student achieve that, beyond simply saying, "Wave your arm like this and feel being connected" - a variation of, "Repeat this sequence of choreography (i.e. the form) for 20 years and you'll be a great master"? If the student has no practical experience of what it means to be "connected", how do they know if they are or are not beyond just imagining it.

"In my imagination, I'm a great warrior: in reality, not so much."
Last edited by charles on Sun May 27, 2018 6:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby Bao on Sun May 27, 2018 6:48 am

Damn Charles. That was a great reply. 8-)
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby charles on Sun May 27, 2018 7:12 am

Ozguorui wrote:BTW, slowly working through your silk reeling videos.....about 60% so far...


I hope they are helpful to your practice. If you have any questions or comments about them, let me know, but outside of this discussion thread so as not to hijack Graham's thread.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 7:38 am

Hi Charles,

This sounds a bit like your asking (philosophically) ‘How can we really be sure we can know anything?”

And I guess that, philosophically speaking, we can’t.

But this is a video. It’s one way communication. What can I do about that?

Of course, face to face I can asses what’s happening and provide feedback.

(I don’t know if you missed it, but I did suggest earlier in the thread that if anybody is following along with this series they should post videos of their results and I can provide feedback, but I don’t think anybody will be brave enough to take up the offer. It feels to me like the people doing most of the talking on this thread - yourself, Bao, Middleway and Willie already have your own set ideas on what’s what, so maybe the lurkers will surprise me and post something.)

But if you are suggesting that the teaching method for a beginner is to move away from “feelings”, I’d disagree. That’s *exactly* where it should be directed. To do what I’m proposing you need an intense awareness of the inner body. When it comes to the inner body all we have to deal with are feelings.

I’m not talking about a magic Qi connection - I’m talking about a real, felt, tangible (Qi) connection. Of course, in a beginner it may even be too weak to feel at all, in which case, keep practicing, you will build the connection over time. It starts off felling thin and weak and the more you practice with the right focus the more you build it up.

Incidentally, the second part of the video where I talk about giving up the need to make a circle with your hand was the key to it for me. As soon as I surrendered and gave up, there it was. I could feel it. This was months into the process for me. The day after it clicked my whole arm really ached so much. It was weird. I was clearly using something that I hadn’t previously used in the body, and my body wasn't used to it.

Maybe assuming people can get that connection in 8 weeks is a bit optimistic, but I think that if somebody had pointed me in that direction a bit sooner I’d have got it a bit sooner… (or they can keep repeating the 8 weeks as a cycle until progress is made).

So, no. Stay with feelings, that’s where you’ll find it. Correct practice over time will yield results.

best,
Graham
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun May 27, 2018 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13554
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby Bao on Sun May 27, 2018 8:09 am

I like how that teacher Charles spoke about put it. What you feel can indeed be subjective and there are things that could be misinterpreted and misunderstood and even become bad habits. Everyone have themselves only as a reference point to rely on. But yet, correct stance practice and postures with the correct angles are often designed to teach or practice very specific things, not "feelings". For instance, there are certainly correct ways and wrong ways to stand in a mabu or in a santishi. These examples are not about subjective feelings, but about correct practice. But you really need a teacher who can guide you and correct your posture, because most people won't get it right be themselves. So I do agree with Charles on the subjective part. What was felt right yesterday could be wrong tomorrow. But somewhere you need to learn how to feel what is correct by yourself. You can't always rely on someone else, and a teacher might have limitations as well. I had a teacher that would never correct a posture when you practiced form. His opinion was that you must learn to understand by yourself what s correct or not and that the external posture is of very little importance. Instead it's the internal movements that are important and you need to come to this understanding by yourself. So there are certainly two different sides of the coin. Personally, I believe that most Tai Chi practitioners are all to much concerned about the outer appearance. The internal mechanics is what should be taught and here is where the focus should be. IMO.
Last edited by Bao on Sun May 27, 2018 8:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi Notebook course

Postby charles on Sun May 27, 2018 9:14 am

GrahamB wrote:This sounds a bit like your asking (philosophically) ‘How can we really be sure we can know anything?”


Just to be clear, I'm asking a very specific, practical question: it isn't a questions of epistemology.

Urban legend has it that the final exam of a course on existentialism had a single question that asked, "Prove you exist." In answer to the question, one student walked up the professor and kicked him in the nuts. The student got an A in the course.

I don’t know if you missed it, but I did suggest earlier in the thread that if anybody is following along with this series they should post videos of their results and I can provide feedback


Yes, I saw it. I decided it was better for me not to comment on it. As you are aware, I have numerous videos publicly viewable, one of which teaches the single arm circle you are teaching.


But if you are suggesting that the teaching method for a beginner is to move away from “feelings”, I’d disagree. That’s *exactly* where it should be directed.


My first encounter with Taiji was a class I took at a local community college. The class was taught by several volunteers from the organization called Taoist Tai Chi, by the number of members, then the largest "martial arts" organization in the world. After the 8-week introduction, I attended one of their schools. The business model for the organization is that teachers at the branch schools are volunteers. Consequently, we had a number of teachers taking turns teaching the beginner's class. I observed that each teacher performed the movements somewhat differently. When I asked a teacher about that, and whether a specific movement should be done the way that teacher does it or this teacher does it, the teacher shrugged and said to do it however I wanted. My conclusion was that if it didn't really matter how I did the movements, then I didn't really need someone to teach me, since anyway I did the movements was okay. I left the school shortly thereafter in search of better teachers.

Getting back to the subject at hand, if all I need to do is wave my arm in a circle until I feel something I like, why do I need a teacher to do that? If any feeling I have is meaningful and correct, can't I just do whatever produces the feelings I want and call that Tai Chi? If it is all about subjective feeling, do I need a teacher to validate what I feel? How do I know that I feel what the teacher feels? How do I know that the teacher knows what I feel - if they don't how can their guidance be relevant?

Once upon a time, Taijiquan was something very specific, a martial art. One was successful at the art if one stayed alive and prevailed in a martial conflict. There was objective evidence that what was being done was effective or "correct".

What you seem to be suggesting is the antithesis of that: whatever you feel is correct because there is no objective criteria for "correctness". That is, as long as what you feel you believe is correct, it is correct. That is the gateway to, "Taijiquan is whatever I want it to be", "The rules of chess are whatever I want them to be", "gravity acts in whatever direction I want it to", and, to quote Humpty Dumpty, "Words mean whatever I want them to mean". It's a slippery slope eliminating from one's existence any form of objectivity. (No, I'm not going to mention current U.S. politics.)

Used to be physicists and philosophers believed that heavy objects fell faster than lighter objects. Reasoned from their armchairs, it seemed like it should be true. It wasn't until Galileo that anyone performed objective tests to prove or disprove that claim.


To do what I’m proposing you need an intense awareness of the inner body.


Agreed. However, first, few beginning students have that awareness. Second, just feeling "stuff" doesn't necessarily mean anything other than you feel stuff: not all feelings are necessarily measures of achievement.

When it comes to the inner body all we have to deal with are feelings.


If you are referring to Taoist Alchemy type development, that might be true. Is what you are teaching in the videos the starting point for that development?

I’m not talking about a magic Qi connection - I’m talking about a real, felt, tangible (Qi) connection. Of course, in a beginner it may even be too weak to feel at all, in which case, keep practicing, you will build the connection over time. It starts off felling thin and weak and the more you practice with the right focus the more you build it up.


That's the party line. I've lost count of the number of Taiji practitioners I've met who claim to have all sorts of "(Qi) connection", but don't have even basic movement down, let alone be able to do anything objective with it. This is different than "Internal" or "Taoist" alchemy.

Incidentally, the second part of the video where I talk about giving up the need to make a circle with your hand was the key to it for me. As soon as I surrendered and gave up, there it was. I could feel it. This was months into the process for me. The day after it clicked my whole arm really ached so much. It was weird. I was clearly using something that I hadn’t previously used in the body, and my body wasn't used to it.


The obvious question is what sort of instruction or exercise can one give a beginner that reduces that time from months to 10 minutes?

Maybe assuming people can get that connection in 8 weeks is a bit optimistic, but I think that if somebody had pointed me in that direction a bit sooner I’d have got it a bit sooner… (or they can keep repeating the 8 weeks as a cycle until progress is made).


"Connection" of what or which parts, specifically? What parts are you trying to connect? What mechanisms - physical and/or mental - are being used to make that connection? If one begins to delve deeper into what "connection" is and how it is achieved, one can identify specific mechanisms for how "connection" is attained. Identifying those mechanisms allows one to use specific exercises to teach, train and reinforce those mechanism. Just telling a beginner with no experience of "connection" to connect their hand to their foot isn't very effective. It's along the lines of the proverbial putting enough monkeys in a room with a typewriter for long enough for them to eventually recreate Shakespeare. Of the many who will repeat the 8 week cycle over and over and over again, a few will get it, but history suggests that most won't.


So, no. Stay with feelings, that’s where you’ll find it.


Depending upon what the "it" is that one is seeking, that's true.

Correct practice over time will yield results.


Agreed. Where we disagree is on what that correct practice is and how to effectively teach it.
Last edited by charles on Sun May 27, 2018 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests