The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:55 am

Giles wrote: In practice it will indeed usually happen simply because one hand is striking and the waist/hips are relaxed.


Agree in general, but it also depends if you want the body to drive the strike. A not visible body movement is obviously to prefer.

charles wrote:Another is that in long power, the object is to move the opponent through a distance; in short power the object is not to move the opponent.


I am not sure if I totally agree. You can strike with both. You can do a “brush knee” with both long and short power. Both can have penetrating power. You can also do a “push” with a short shocking power and a “push” with long power that is quite painful. One of my practice partners many years ago was a very big guy. His push felt like pressing together the whole chest, it was painful but I don’t think he made any effort.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Giles on Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:04 am

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Charles.

charles wrote:One can generate force - "long" or "short" - by expansion/opening or by contraction/closing. In both of these there is sinking of the body, but at different points in the sequence. The arms should always be "relaxed", but not limp, regardless of opening or closing. So, your description doesn't, for me, isn't what distinguishes long from short power.

In some styles, the entire body doesn't do one thing. That is, parts of the body do one thing, open or close, while parts of the body do another, open or close, but in a coordinated way. In that case, some parts open, some close, some expand, some contract. That can be done while shifting weight or not.


I kept my description short because I wanted to make brief points, not make it into a long post. In principle I would certainly agree with the opening and closing, expanding and contracting. For instance, area between the shoulder blades opening and chest closing. To some extent I do this, but quite possibly I don't (or can't :) ) do some things in the way you envisage. Probably too hard to explain in words - a pity you can't show (me) this in person!


If A can then project B backwards with a clear push and maintaining relaxed arms without A himself falling (or swaying) forwards or backwards in the process, then I find this translates quite well into short power.!


charles wrote:The salient point of the exercise you describe seems to be that there is no linear translation of the centreline, per Bao's point. There are probably lots of ways one could describe the distinction between long and short power. Bao's description captures some of that with his stating that long power involves follow-through and a translation (weight shift between legs) of the centreline, while short power doesn't. That distinction works for styles that do shift weight while pushing, but doesn't include those that don't (e.g. Hong style). In other words, its possible to push (long power) without necessarily shifting weight.


Agreed. IMO the forward shifting of the centreline (and often sinking it simultaneously) is very common for long power but not strictly necessary (see below).

charles wrote:As you pointed out, duration of force transfer is one of the distinctions between long and short power. Another is that in long power, the object is to move the opponent through a distance; in short power the object is not to move the opponent.
...but to make the energy stay inside the opponent.

Agreed, whereby I'd say that the second difference is a natural consequence of the first. To illustrate the basic physics with a theoretical (and rather macabre) example: You have a long steel rod of 1cm diameter and a flat end. You can place the end against the belly of a person and apply force in a forward direction and in a smooth manner over, say, 5 seconds and in this way push him backwards 1 metre. If you then apply the same amount of force in the space of one-quarter of a second, the person won't be moved backwards, but something else will happen. The 'penetrating power' here is more literal of course, but also a metaphor for short-power strike.

A short video demonstrating/explaining your approach(es) would be a nice departure point for further discussion. Just a thought... :)
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Giles on Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:45 am

Bao wrote: You can strike with both. You can do a “brush knee” with both long and short power. Both can have penetrating power. You can also do a “push” with a short shocking power and a “push” with long power that is quite painful.


Interesting. Not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes here. Maybe this is within my experience, maybe not. Language is insufficient. Maybe one day before the world ends you can show me.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Dmitri on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:53 am

It's OK guys. We're all clearly with the 1% that does know. It's everybody else out there who are in the dark, the poor bastards... Obviously the only way to help them is for us all to click/view that video as much as possible, and to share it with everyone we know, ASAP.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:13 am

Giles wrote:Interesting. Not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes here. Maybe this is within my experience, maybe not. Language is insufficient. Maybe one day before the world ends you can show me.


Well... I don't know if I can make it much clearer. You are right, it's better to show first hand. I don't think it's so simple as "short" or "long" jin. Different styles and schools, tai chi and other IMA, have all different philosophies, how to deal with balance, structure and alignment. Much of this Tai chi talk and concepts are IMO too limited. They often don't embrace the whole potential of the art. What Charles brought up with Hong style is an excellent point. In some respects it has a very different philosophy than many other schools.

Dmitri wrote:It's OK guys. We're all clearly with the 1% that does know. It's everybody else out there who are in the dark, the poor bastards...


Yes, that video is the shit! Share and care!

Or maybe, it's more like 99% of all TCC practtioners believe that they do the "right" stuff? So we all belong to that 99% instead of that 1%?

...which means that we are all one happy family after all. ... :-* ;D
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:20 pm

Short power(abrupt energy) breaks you up inside the best example is cold shaking energy
Long power (prolonged energy) thrusts you far away
I could manifest short power within my first year of training
My weapon of choice in those days was press
A wrist lock can be an example of abrupt energy
Yet it is only the crude that use it in this way
I remember years ago developing very strong power through a set of noi gung I was practicing
I thought why am I developing this,what does it mean to my life apart from ego
It was adandoned as a mode of practice and I am glad to this day
Extreme power is the road to disbalance and delusion
Not for all but some
I bet you think this song is about you,don't you.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:05 pm

FYI, the OP's video comes from a Youtube channel that has the habit of collecting CMA clips found on various Chinese sites and then changing the original titles around to make them sound much more shockingly impressive than they were meant to be. ::)

On the subject of fajin, I was told very early on by my teacher/mentor that "the more you see on the outside, the less there is on the inside." However, as someone new to CIMA at the time, I failed to comprehend the wisdom behind his words and pursued fajin tirelessly -- simply because it looked and made me FEEL powerful. It wasn't until around a decade into my training when I slowly began to realize how true that statement really is.

Real power should always reside within you and be present everywhere. Once this state of being is developed, anything that you come into contact with that is in a weaker state will be unbalanced and moved. When this process is done at speed, fajin naturally occurs.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Subitai on Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:15 pm

I assume that the video was posted to promote discussion?

Well other than some of the obvious answers and statements already given. Am I really gonna bother..? I guess so.

I'm not saying this teacher is bad persay...in fact much of what he's showing is pretty standard stuff.

The problem is that there are too many guys out there just like this teacher who can show it all from a push hands or traditional point of view. But when it comes to applying vs a NON player...or an unorthodox person...they are sh!t out of luck. Basically...they haven't learned to set it up vs a modern person...doing everything they can to screw you up.

* 10 seconds into it and he's already pulled me into a double leg takedown -argh- -argh- ...the fights already in my favor in seconds.

I pose this question: what would happen if you matched this teacher vs the chinese MMA challenger(forgot his name) guy ? It would be the same result ::)

OK OK OK....I do also realize that being able to use Taiji in an MMA setting is not everyone's desired goal and neither should it be.

Anyway, if this is the secret of Taiji that is not being transmitted...haha...it's an even worse sign of the times for Taiji in general. Yes and no I guess...there will always be people who love taiji just for the sake of doing it. They don't all have to apply in a real sense. I think that matters most if you are a fighter or for sure a teacher...then you need to be able to back your shit up.


marvin8 wrote:Videos Worth Watching
Published on May 30, 2018:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbkoRXo23CY
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:56 pm

Bao wrote:So we all belong to that 99% instead of that 1%?

...which means that we are all one happy family after all. ... :-* ;D

And we outnumber them 1%ers big time, maybe that's why they stay in the shadows 8-)
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Appledog on Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:21 am

C.J.W. wrote:FYI, the OP's video comes from a Youtube channel that has the habit of collecting CMA clips found on various Chinese sites and then changing the original titles around to make them sound much more shockingly impressive than they were meant to be. ::)

On the subject of fajin, I was told very early on by my teacher/mentor that "the more you see on the outside, the less there is on the inside." However, as someone new to CIMA at the time, I failed to comprehend the wisdom behind his words and pursued fajin tirelessly -- simply because it looked and made me FEEL powerful. It wasn't until around a decade into my training when I slowly began to realize how true that statement really is.

Real power should always reside within you and be present everywhere. Once this state of being is developed, anything that you come into contact with that is in a weaker state will be unbalanced and moved. When this process is done at speed, fajin naturally occurs.


Ahh so the truth comes out. /thread

While I'm here, does anyone want to know the secrets of Tai Chi that are not generally transmitted? I am available, more or less, via e-mail (for now) or homestay and should be in Canada on an ongoing basis by the end of the year.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:33 pm

C.J.W. wrote:FYI, the OP's video comes from a Youtube channel that has the habit of collecting CMA clips found on various Chinese sites and then changing the original titles around to make them sound much more shockingly impressive than they were meant to be. ::)

As C.J.W says, I would not blame the title on Ngiam Tong Kheng, the demonstrator.

From "About Master Ngiam," http://masterngiam.blogspot.com/p/about ... ngiam.html:
Master Ngiam Tong Kheng is World Traditional Martial Art Union Ninth Dan, an International Wushu Judge (International Wushu Federation), Elected China New Age Martial Art World Celebrity. He has been teaching martial arts, taijiquan and qigong for 40 over years.
Master Ngiam’s martial arts are wide-scoped and diverse, both internal and external, including Shaolin, Wudang, Kunlun, Emei Martial Arts and Qigong, various styles of taiji quan or the supreme fists, ie. Chen (陈) Yang (杨), Wǔ (武), Sūn (孙) and Wú (吴) styles. His Chinese martial arts training also included weapons such as sabre, sword, guan dao (long pole with blade), spear and cudgel.

Click here to read more about Master Ngiam


A couple more application videos.

Tong Kheng Ngiam
Published on May 26, 2018:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-YBk3sO-rM

Tong Kheng Ngiam
Published on Jul 18, 2016:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM7WbwyVGmI

Subitai wrote:I assume that the video was posted to promote discussion?

Well other than some of the obvious answers and statements already given. Am I really gonna bother..? I guess so.

I'm not saying this teacher is bad persay...in fact much of what he's showing is pretty standard stuff.

The problem is that there are too many guys out there just like this teacher who can show it all from a push hands or traditional point of view. But when it comes to applying vs a NON player...or an unorthodox person...they are sh!t out of luck. Basically...they haven't learned to set it up vs a modern person...doing everything they can to screw you up.

* 10 seconds into it and he's already pulled me into a double leg takedown -argh- -argh- ...the fights already in my favor in seconds.

Yes, opinions on his application of the forms are appreciated. As mentioned, they are relatively standard. I assume Ngiam is passing on traditional CMA as he was taught.

Subitai wrote:I pose this question: what would happen if you matched this teacher vs the chinese MMA challenger(forgot his name) guy ? It would be the same result ::)

OK OK OK....I do also realize that being able to use Taiji in an MMA setting is not everyone's desired goal and neither should it be.

I agree. IMO, the result would be the same against Xu Xiaodong, given Ngiam's age, traditional practice and lack of fight experience in his bio.

It is not "everyone's desired goal." However, a main goal of all martial arts is to defend against attacks (e.g., punch, kicks, knees, elbows, throws, submissions, etc.), regardless of the locale (e.g., street, ring). A "MMA setting" can be used to measure one's ability to defend against a non-compliant opponent.

One major factor, in training to defend oneself in a MMA setting, is partner training. For example, pad work vs. push hands: similar concepts and goals, different methods. Chen village recognized this as evidenced by their adoption of similar training methods.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:29 pm

I have never been in a tai chi school that does not practice application or sparing
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:52 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I have never been in a tai chi school that does not practice application or sparing

I did not say tai chi does not "practice application or sparring." Tai chi traditional method does "not practice" pad work, especially at the level of combat sports.

The context was a MMA setting. By deductive reasoning (e.g., Chen Village, the world of combat sports, etc), correct pad work type training needs to be included in order to defend oneself in the ring. Per Chen Village, traditional tai chi partner work is not enough to defend oneself in the ring.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:51 pm

When I started in 1973 we had drills on the hanging bag,practiced wall bags,hit iron palm bags and threw mung bean bags
They were all well established well before that
We used boxing hand pads in the 70's but I am not sure when they came in
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:52 am

wayne hansen wrote:When I started in 1973 we had drills on the hanging bag,practiced wall bags,hit iron palm bags and threw mung bean bags
They were all well established well before that

Yes, I wasn't speaking of bag work or conditioning. The difference is in the type of partner training.
wayne hansen wrote:We used boxing hand pads in the 70's but I am not sure when they came in

What combinations would you do on the pads?
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