The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:59 am

Not boxing combinations ,ones out of the forms
Mainly from San shou and Chocks fighting form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:38 pm

I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.

IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:25 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.

IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.

What are those specific reasons? ......My own experience was/is with the makiwara(striking board) which immediately tells one need to use a connected whole body, but I think a heavy bag tells the same although its surface is "softer". Boxing striking pads one can work more on speed/reaction since the pad holder might change position.......I like the floor to ceiling strike ball
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:32 am

Trick wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.

IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.

What are those specific reasons? ......My own experience was/is with the makiwara(striking board) which immediately tells one need to use a connected whole body, but I think a heavy bag tells the same although its surface is "softer". Boxing striking pads one can work more on speed/reaction since the pad holder might change position.......I like the floor to ceiling strike ball


One could look at the methods and see the results as shown many times over and over...One method doesn't work out to well against live moving targets. :P
often becoming the target, of the live moving targets they encounter.


In my first CMA gym

" Going through another door one would enter into the main training room with a large US Army duffel bag filled with sand hanging by a chain. The bag must have weighed three hundred pounds and was hard as a rock. Touching it I wondered what one would do with such a bag the canvas was very course and as I would find out very unforgiving if one hit off center. Blood stains left by those who had, later I would add my own…

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/06/23/mike-staples/

After all these yrs my hands and forearms still have the effect from the training of that time.
We trained the whole hand to include the back of it...lots of things were done said to deaden the nerves, whether it did or not
couldn't have been to healthy for the body.....being young at the time didn't matter much,,,
a little bit old now I tend to wonder about it :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:09 am

I wonder if boxing gyms ever had (purely)sand filled heavy bags?
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:20 pm

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.

IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.

What are those specific reasons? ......My own experience was/is with the makiwara(striking board) which immediately tells one need to use a connected whole body, but I think a heavy bag tells the same although its surface is "softer". Boxing striking pads one can work more on speed/reaction since the pad holder might change position.......I like the floor to ceiling strike ball


One could look at the methods and see the results as shown many times over and over...One method doesn't work out to well against live moving targets. :P
often becoming the target, of the live moving targets they encounter.

Striking Immovable and movable targets have different purposes. All "fighting styles" share an end goal of defending oneself against a non-compliant opponent.

The reason to strike an "immovable target" includes testing a "connected whole body" and conditioning of body parts. "Non-Chinese fighting arts" conditioning exercises include striking makiwara, trees, stones, boards, floor, heavy bag, wall bag (without hand wraps or gloves), iron palm training, knuckle push ups, weights, etc.

Chen Village determined traditional TCMA training "doesn't work out too well against live moving targets." Per Chenjiagou (deductive reasoning), push hands, chi sau and partner application exercises that start from contact does not develop enough skill in order to fight sanda. This is why they added movable targets: pad work, kicking shields and heavy bags to their training. Also, this is a possible reason why Wei (taiji) and Ding (wing chun) lost to Xu (MMA). (For the record, I may not agree with Chenjiagou training methods and understand not practicing taiji moves on pads.)

In the Xu vs Wei and Ding fights, Wei and Ding were not able to defend against, stick to, control or trap Xu's barrage of punches. A reason may be their method of TCMA partner training: going from contact partner training directly to sparring.

In MMA, a small portion of time is spent hard sparring. More time is spent hitting movable targets, partner drills, etc., while working as a team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXiDqSO1Ko

Pad work is not a moving punching bag. Both offense and defense are trained simultaneously.

Focus mitt training can help one: improve punching skills (technique, power, speed, endurance, accuracy, timing) improve offensive skills (angles, combinations) improve defensive skills (blocking, parrying, slipping, rolling), footwork, etc. Goals are similar to TCMA without starting from contact.

(Mikayla Nebel is now a professional boxer and praises Roger's training.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E---LAOkDao


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXsLHdYN4J0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvdyJwxgcKM
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:16 pm

I personally can't speak for other IMA styles, but in my Bauga lineage, we do not make use of pads, bags, and focus mitts. We train push-strikes and strike-pushes on trees of varying sizes, against walls, and wooden posts that provides a slight give. There are also various free-fighting drills that we work on against a live opponent wearing protective gears in order to practice issuing power on a moving, resisting target.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:20 pm

Good post

marvin8 wrote:
Chen Village determined traditional TCMA training "doesn't work out too well against live moving targets." Per Chenjiagou (deductive reasoning), push hands, chi sau and partner application exercises that start from contact does not develop enough skill in order to fight sanda. This is why they added movable targets: pad work, kicking shields and heavy bags to their training. Also, this is a possible reason why Wei (taiji) and Ding (wing chun) lost to Xu (MMA). (For the record, I may not agree with Chenjiagou training methods and understand not practicing taiji moves on pads.) Disagree, there is what's called moving step push hands, but agree with the basic premise.
Their current practice methods, strategic assumptions , do not translate well into real world usage .

In the Xu vs Wei and Ding fights, Wei and Ding were not able to defend against, stick to, control or trap Xu's barrage of punches. A reason may be their method of TCMA partner training: going from contact partner training directly to sparring.

In MMA, a small portion of time is spent hard sparring. More time is spent hitting movable targets, partner drills, etc., while working as a team.

Coming from hitting CMA style Background. As a teenager when I first saw Taiji My feeling was that it would never work . Now after many years of practicing tiaji to understand it, as an older man I've made the corrections to it, based on what I felt looking at it as a young teen.



Pad work is not a moving punching bag. Both offense and defense are trained simultaneously.

Focus mitt training can help one: improve punching skills (technique, power, speed, endurance, accuracy, timing) improve offensive skills (angles, combinations) improve defensive skills (blocking, parrying, slipping, rolling), footwork, etc. Goals are similar to TCMA without starting from contact.


I think the type of pad / bag work that one uses and trains with, is dependent on the type of power delivery that one focuses on.

Taiji in its current form is recognized through traditional styles. Any updates or hybrids are not considered for the most part as being Taiji
In today's time there are no modern representatives of people using Taiji In a traditional sense in the ring.

The Chen guys in the clips should have had a couple of Signature movements that they could point to as representative of their style if that was the point. Otherwise no need to mention they'er chen Taiji stylist .
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:06 pm

If/when i get the chance to work on a heavybag I don't do " as hard as I can" strikes on it and a mix of I move around it and bag move around me in so keeping close contact with the bag with hands, arms, shoulders, back and hips, quite different from striking only as I did during my karate days........My last week "Taijiquan" applications while I was visiting Dalian where standing firm but relaxed in crowded subway train and moving nimbly and swift through the subway crowd, and also, I sat at the outside area of the cafe i frequently visit, a little windy outside I sat reading on my iPad while my almost empty papercup that stood near the table edge desired to go with the wind, I caught it about ten cm under the table level( without spilling the little coffee left in it:) I surprised myself as it happened in my peripheral vision area...I like to see how my Taiji training comes into play in daily situations like these, it doesn't matter if I missed out some "secret" Taiji stuff, so far it seem to work well for me anyway
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:40 am

Secrets? There are certainly things that can be very hard to teach someone who hasn't built a proper foundation. Teaching behind closed doors might often be more a case of teaching the right people who can understand the stuff properly. But I don't believe there are secrets as "shortcuts". Interestingly enough it's mostly people with less experience and less amount of practice behind them who are interested in secrets.

...I like to see how my Taiji training comes into play in daily situations...


Agree.

Daily practice is very good as long as it doesn't become an obsession Better to have a balance there as well. On a daily basis, I try to check my body for tensions when I walk. And a few times a day, when I do things as shopping or waiting for a bus etc, I try to relax and "drop" or "sink" into my feet. Just to remember that I need to be able to switch on that tai chi of mine instantly, like switching on the light. These and a few other things I do keep my practice alive even if I don't have time to move through a whole form on an everyday basis.

...But I still have a problem dealing with morons in daily life, but I keep on trying to improve myself to remain in the Tai Chi state even dealing with idiots, ...sometimes successfully... :-\

My practice has improved lots and lots of of things in my life, like soccer when I was younger. That was one of my best sports, I could take the ball from anyone and very few could pass me. I was great following their body movements. I played some ball with my kid a couple of days ago. I felt happy when I found that I still had my footwork intact, light and swift. Thought I was getting older but apparently not. 8-)
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:42 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
Chen Village determined traditional TCMA training "doesn't work out too well against live moving targets." Per Chenjiagou (deductive reasoning), push hands, chi sau and partner application exercises that start from contact does not develop enough skill in order to fight sanda. This is why they added movable targets: pad work, kicking shields and heavy bags to their training. Also, this is a possible reason why Wei (taiji) and Ding (wing chun) lost to Xu (MMA). (For the record, I may not agree with Chenjiagou training methods and understand not practicing taiji moves on pads.) Disagree, there is what's called moving step push hands, but agree with the basic premise.
Their current practice methods, strategic assumptions , do not translate well into real world usage .

There is no disagreement. Traditional taiji does do moving partner drills and moving step push hands. However, exercises that simulate more realistic punching and fighting should be added.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_6wk2BBkO8

The above video is not the same as the pad work videos that I posted. Look at the feeder (trainer) not the trainee. Instead of both partners working on the same skills, one becomes the feeder (trainer); the other becomes the trainee. As in Chenjiagou, drills should be added where a skilled trainer holds pads, throws and retracts punches at normal speed while teaching the trainee how to apply principles, strategies and techniques of the art.

windwalker wrote:I think the type of pad / bag work that one uses and trains with, is dependent on the type of power delivery that one focuses on.

Taiji in its current form is recognized through traditional styles. Any updates or hybrids are not considered for the most part as being Taiji
In today's time there are no modern representatives of people using Taiji In a traditional sense in the ring.

The Chen guys in the clips should have had a couple of Signature movements that they could point to as representative of their style if that was the point. Otherwise no need to mention they'er chen Taiji stylist .

I am not advocating taiji people practice or don't practice boxing or sanda on pads. I don't know the explanation of why Chenjiagou does what it does, which is similar to what Max and Tiffany Chen did. What does it mean to be formless?

Trick wrote:If/when i get the chance to work on a heavybag I don't do " as hard as I can" strikes on it and a mix of I move around it and bag move around me in so keeping close contact with the bag with hands, arms, shoulders, back and hips, quite different from striking only as I did during my karate days.

I agree. The heavy bag is not only for punching hard. It should be used to practice various skills including yielding, distance, timing, balance, etc.

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Published on Mar 7, 2017

A round of my padwork with commentary from my newest post for Nak Muay Nation, tracing 3 days of my padwork with Pi Nu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rueAjzt-i2Q

Sylvie von Duuglas-Ittu - Muay Thai
Published on Feb 14, 2017

A little drill I came up with the other day to work on my retreating footwork and counter striking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUePtCE3CXA
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:18 am

Well, I don't know what every style of tcc (or bagua, xy, lhbf, etc) does; but I can safely say this when it comes to most competition. The training leading up to a contest should be aimed at performance in that specific context. For fighting, there are always two issues: 1) conditioning, and 2) skills and tactical applications. Whatever the skills known or train, the athlete has to be in condition to execute over the course of a match.

So, I don't think it really matters that some styles strike hard objects and others don't. I don't think that any cma has shown that its training techniques are superior. If it's a competition, what matters is who wins. Btw, that doesn't mean that winning is everything in mas or even that important. My point is that when one enters a competition, winning is the goal, and one trains for that.

Anyway, afa bags, I've seen all sorts in different schools. I've never really thought that one type was associated with different ima styles. I've never seen a mook jong in a tcc school, but that means nothing. :) People will ultimately use what works for them for what they want to do.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:41 am

What does it mean to be formless?


An often asked question....some thoughts

It does not mean to be without from, only that one is not to be aware of it.
What ever is trained is reflected in this.

"Form does not differ from Emptiness Emptiness does not differ from Form"
the heart sutra speaks to this

For much of CMA not just taiji, The conundrum is that what is often practiced never seems to be used as practiced.
This is in stark contrast to other combative arts, boxing BJJ ect. were training is reflected in usage.
When people speak of taiji they expect to see something used reflective of what is trained.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby Taijikid on Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:21 am

Lets just say that, if you fixate on just doing the FORM right, be it Chen, Yang, Wu or what ever style. You are not doing Tai Chi correctly.

The emphasis should be on the function/application of each move under various conditions/situations. That's why the old Masters got it right! That's why there are so many STYLEs of Tai Chi.
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Re: The secret of Tai Chi is not transmitted! 99% don't know

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:27 pm

Taijikid wrote:Lets just say that, if you fixate on just doing the FORM right, be it Chen, Yang, Wu or what ever style. You are not doing Tai Chi correctly.
doing what right?
The emphasis should be on the function/application of each move under various conditions/situations. That's why the old Masters got it right! That's why there are so many STYLEs of Tai Chi.
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