Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

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Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:34 am

Fight Commentary Breakdowns
Published on Jul 14, 2018

A very promising conclusion (or epilogue) to the Xu Xiaodong (徐晓东) vs Wei Lei (魏雷) MMA vs Tai Chi fight that set off the entire traditional martial arts (TMA) vs Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) debate that has defined the last few years of martial arts thought and debate. How useful are traditional styles? What are the limitations of MMA? Why are people so stubborn and so afraid to admit truth if it makes them look bad? Did China simplify its best styles of Kung Fu into nothing? Our Tai Chi master Lei Lei has taken the right approach, in my opinion, and set a good example for other martial artists who want to modernize their styles if they truly want to call it a "martial" art (and not just an art or a dance). Leave your comments below!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdMGJhyfw8
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby junglist on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:35 am

Some traditional martial arts use different movement mechanics than modern arts. The main idea of internal martial arts is that it uses more efficient movement principles than Western-based movement principles. If we didn’t believe that, then there wouldn’t be a rumsoakedfist forum.

The problem with traditional martial arts is the delivery system. You can not use decontextualized techniques preserved in the tradition to modern formats of combatives. You need to incarnate the principles in the combative format of your choosing.

It’s easy to simplify it this way: traditional arts suxorz so h4rd and mod3rn 4rt5 da b3st BJJ 4eva. Truth is, it’s more complicated than that.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:35 pm

marvin8 wrote:Fight Commentary Breakdowns
Published on Jul 14, 2018

A very promising conclusion (or epilogue) to the Xu Xiaodong (徐晓东) vs Wei Lei (魏雷) MMA vs Tai Chi fight that set off the entire traditional martial arts (TMA) vs Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) debate that has defined the last few years of martial arts thought and debate. How useful are traditional styles?
Depends on what the training is based on and focus. What is called traditional in todays time comes from a point in time that the traditions were changed fitting the needs of the teachers to make a living


What are the limitations of MMA? I look at it as focus rather then limitation.

Why are people so stubborn and so afraid to admit truth if it makes them look bad? Did China simplify its best styles of Kung Fu into nothing?
I would look at how things are judged and the standards used. Compare the threads here addressing skill and what is viewed as skill,
with what is shown to demonstrate the skill. Notice that with cma for the most part none of the arts practiced are shown directly by exponents of the arts using them...In almost all cases people in competitive fighting are used as examples of what it would be, should be, or could be..but somehow never is when those claiming to be exponente step up. Either they are not really exponents or maybe they don't quite work as advertised. Or those that have skill dont care about showing the skill and so don't.


Other arts are judged by usage of skill in acton, cma arts among others tend to be judge in isolation outside of the context of intended use with the expectation that the skill will some how transfer to usage that's never shown.


Our Tai Chi master Lei Lei has taken the right approach, in my opinion, and set a good example for other martial artists who want to modernize their styles if they truly want to call it a "martial" art (and not just an art or a dance). Leave your comments below!


I feel people have to address their own reality, seeking those skills that tend to fit what ever need they perceive as beneficial to it.
In what you mention as modernization only certain aspects will tend to be developed based on a need. If the need is stepping into a ring with another skilled person one has to have skill sets developed that enable one to do so...Unless one works with people who have done so, or is preparing to do so most will not have any idea of the level, intensity, or reality of it is...

CMA is evolving and has not found its footing between preserving traditions of the past, with realities of the present. For what are called fighting styles of cma while they may not be represented in the ring, because they have to be functional, in most cases those that train them use them as part of what they do, or encounter, most still retain the aspects that made them so then, and make them so now.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:58 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Fight Commentary Breakdowns
Published on Jul 14, 2018

A very promising conclusion (or epilogue) to the Xu Xiaodong (徐晓东) vs Wei Lei (魏雷) MMA vs Tai Chi fight that set off the entire traditional martial arts (TMA) vs Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) debate that has defined the last few years of martial arts thought and debate. How useful are traditional styles?
Depends on what the training is based on and focus. What is called traditional in todays time comes from a point in time that the traditions were changed fitting the needs of the teachers to make a living


What are the limitations of MMA? I look at it as focus rather then limitation.

Why are people so stubborn and so afraid to admit truth if it makes them look bad? Did China simplify its best styles of Kung Fu into nothing?
I would look at how things are judged and the standards used. Compare the threads here addressing skill and what is viewed as skill,
with what is shown to demonstrate the skill. Notice that with cma for the most part none of the arts practiced are shown directly by exponents of the arts using them...In almost all cases people in competitive fighting are used as examples of what it would be, should be, or could be..but somehow never is when those claiming to be exponente step up. Either they are not really exponents or maybe they don't quite work as advertised. Or those that have skill dont care about showing the skill and so don't.


Other arts are judged by usage of skill in acton, cma arts among others tend to be judge in isolation outside of the context of intended use with the expectation that the skill will some how transfer to usage that's never shown.


Our Tai Chi master Lei Lei has taken the right approach, in my opinion, and set a good example for other martial artists who want to modernize their styles if they truly want to call it a "martial" art (and not just an art or a dance). Leave your comments below!


I feel people have to address their own reality, seeking those skills that tend to fit what ever need they perceive as beneficial to it.
In what you mention as modernization only certain aspects will tend to be developed based on a need. If the need is stepping into a ring with another skilled person one has to have skill sets developed that enable one to do so...Unless one works with people who have done so, or is preparing to do so most will not have any idea of the level, intensity, or reality of it is...

The questions, views and opinions expressed in the video description are those of Fight Commentary Breakdowns and do not necessarily reflect my views.

By definition, all martial art training should include developing "skill sets to enable one" to defend oneself in a ring, street or any other venue. If it doesn't, it may be misleading and dangerous to gullible students.

There are other activities (e.g., dance, etc.) that may provide more efficient health, social, spiritual, etc., benefits than martial arts.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:14 pm

By definition, all maartial art training should include developing "skill sets to enable one" to defend oneself in a ring, street or any other venue. If it doesn't, it may be misleading and dangerous to gullible students.


Totally agree with the exception instead of gullible I would say people not clear in what they're seeking.

It's not just students, those teaching also need to be very clear about what they do, and think they are doing.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:23 pm

windwalker wrote:
By definition, all maartial art training should include developing "skill sets to enable one" to defend oneself in a ring, street or any other venue. If it doesn't, it may be misleading and dangerous to gullible students.


Totally agree with the exception instead of gullible I would say people not clear in what they're seeking.

It's not just students, those teaching also need to be very clear about what they do, and think they are doing.

There are many people that enroll in a martial art class "clearly seeking" self-defense among other benefits. However, they may have been mislead by an inept teacher. Wei Lei (魏雷) could be one of those students, having only realized it after many decades.

There are teachers whom are "very clear about what they do" and know what they are doing. But, they do not care about or are not honest (e.g., ego, money, status, power, etc.) with their students.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:23 pm

Please, don’t call him Tai Chi “master
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:24 pm

marvin8 wrote:The questions, views and opinions expressed in the video description are those of Fight Commentary Breakdowns and do not necessarily reflect my views.

By definition, all martial art training should include developing "skill sets to enable one" to defend oneself in a ring, street or any other venue. If it doesn't, it may be misleading and dangerous to gullible students. I think what you mentioned would be called self defense not martial arts. Martial arts are arts used in war my definition. What might work in the street may not in the ring, and what might work in the ring might be the wrong to do in the street.
One main point of being avoid at all costs if possible, not something one would practice for in a ring. its different.

There are other activities (e.g., dance, etc.) that may provide more efficient health, social, spiritual, etc., benefits than martial arts.


Ok I see now, some confusion on my part :P . Didn't listen to the clip only read the commentary which I thought was yours.


After watching it, no I do not agree with a lot of what was said, I do agree with the idea of testing what one does and seeing if
what one thinks they'er doing, they actually can do.

As to the other activities mentioned. I see CMA has a cultural practice who's focus has been changed at different points in history, some of which helped to evolve the different styles and practices of today. Its pointless to expect what was established, re establish itself again.

What would be the point...Taiji is taiji, bagaua is bagua, xingyi, is xingyi....ect.

I don't see the point of changing anything as long as one understands what one is doing....There are bad teachers, just as there are bad students...not really something I pay much attention too....

I think the teacher is making another mistake but maybe one that leaves him better prepared for what he feels are valid
skill sets in the environments he expects to use them in. What he did before served him well with those he interacted with until he
decided to use in it in a different context. The point of developing a skill for some is that no one should know or understand it until its called
into use....its hidden.

Seems to me he is still confused as to the purpose of his own training,,,hes not clear...
Hopefully his new training gives him some clarity.

David Chin a noted hop gar teacher, has different classes according to peoples needs, expectations,
and the environments they intend to use them in. He among others are a good example of someone whos keeping the CMA tradition alive
while adapting them to today's market place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHxCvLGE_qw
.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:42 pm

Wei Lei (魏雷) could be one of those students, having only realized it after many decades.


What he realized was that he was unprepared for the opponent he faced, happens. :P

Who knows what his skill sets were relative to those in his own community.
At lest he tried in a very public way and failed in a very public way this too happens.
Sometimes causing a lot of reflection a good thing IMO.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:31 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:By definition, all martial art training should include developing "skill sets to enable one" to defend oneself in a ring, street or any other venue. If it doesn't, it may be misleading and dangerous to gullible students.
I think what you mentioned would be called self defense not martial arts. Martial arts are arts used in war my definition.

I am referencing the dictionary's definition, not your definition.

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The questions, views and opinions expressed in the video description are those of Fight Commentary Breakdowns and do not necessarily reflect my views.

By definition, all martial art training should include developing "skill sets to enable one" to defend oneself in a ring, street or any other venue. If it doesn't, it may be misleading and dangerous to gullible students. I think what you mentioned would be called self defense not martial arts. Martial arts are arts used in war my definition. What might work in the street may not in the ring, and what might work in the ring might be the wrong to do in the street.
One main point of being avoid at all costs if possible, not something one would practice for in a ring. its different.

There are other activities (e.g., dance, etc.) that may provide more efficient health, social, spiritual, etc., benefits than martial arts.


Ok I see now, some confusion on my part :P . Didn't listen to the clip only read the commentary which I thought was yours.


After watching it, no I do not agree with a lot of what was said, I do agree with the idea of testing what one does and seeing if
what one thinks they'er doing, they actually can do.

I do not agree with everything in the video.

windwalker wrote:As to the other activities mentioned. I see CMA has a cultural practice who's focus has been changed at different points in history, some of which helped to evolve the different styles and practices of today. Its pointless to expect what was established, re establish itself again.

What would be the point...Taiji is taiji, bagaua is bagua, xingyi, is xingyi....ect.

I don't see the point of changing anything as long as one understands what one is doing....There are bad teachers, just as there are bad students...not really something I pay much attention too....

I think the teacher is making another mistake but maybe one that leaves him better prepared for what he feels are valid
skill sets in the environments
he expects to use them in. What he did before served him well with those he interacted with until he
decided to use in it in a different context. The point of developing a skill for some is that no one should know or understand it until its called
into use....its hidden.


Seems to me he is still confused as to the purpose of his own training,,,hes not clear...
Hopefully his new training gives him some clarity.

I am indifferent to whether TCMA changes anything.

Wei did not have the "valid skill sets" to defend himself in a fight. "What he did before served him well with those he interacted with until," he needed them in a fight. Wei is not "confused as to the purpose of his own martial arts training." He is "clear" that one of the purposes of his training is to defend himself in a fight, against punches. That is why Wei chose to start kickboxing lessons.

"The point of developing a skill is to" know, understand and have the ability to use the skill when it is needed.

windwalker wrote:David Chin a noted hop gar teacher, has different classes according to peoples needs, expectations,
and the environments they intend to use them in. He among others are a good example of someone whos keeping the CMA tradition alive
while adapting them to today's market place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHxCvLGE_qw

Per the video, David Chin has added modern training to the traditional "hop gar." Wei has also added modern training.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby Steve James on Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:53 pm

Well, imo, it's useless to say that ima is "more" anything that western arts. It isn't necessary for a xingyi guy to hit harder than a boxer, since boxing power is sufficient for the task of hitting. It's fine to say that a tcc punch (or fajin) is more powerful than whatever; it just doesn't matter when it comes to application. And that's not to say that ima power generation can't be used.

The guy in the video, imo, is doing the right thing if he plans to fight with kickboxers. He has to practice with them to even find out what works against them. It's also a way to prepare for the intensity, as well as the context. He'll learn through the process of elimination, and from getting hit a lot.

There's that old saying about hand grenades being useful, except in a phone booth (If anyone remembers what those are). The same idea applies to flying side kicks, and maybe even Snake Creeps Down, or xingyi dragon.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:29 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, imo, it's useless to say that ima is "more" anything that western arts. It isn't necessary for a xingyi guy to hit harder than a boxer, since boxing power is sufficient for the task of hitting. It's fine to say that a tcc punch (or fajin) is more powerful than whatever; it just doesn't matter when it comes to application. And that's not to say that ima power generation can't be used.

The guy in the video, imo, is doing the right thing if he plans to fight with kickboxers. He has to practice with them to even find out what works against them. It's also a way to prepare for the intensity, as well as the context. He'll learn through the process of elimination, and from getting hit a lot.

There's that old saying about hand grenades being useful, except in a phone booth (If anyone remembers what those are). The same idea applies to flying side kicks, and maybe even Snake Creeps Down, or xingyi dragon.

Xu vs Wei was closer to a street fight than a kickboxing match. There was no ring, gloves or limited rules. If Wei plans to defend himself in a street fight, is he "doing the right thing?"

Here is an interview with Xu, after the fight.

Interviewer @ 7:42: So when you fought him what did you use, like one of those boxing techniques?

Xu: Nothing.

Interviewer: Any special technique?

Xu: No, nothing. Nothing I just pressed forward. A few punches and he was done, done. He did not give me any chance to use any fighting technique. . . .

Interviewer @ 9:11: So basically in your heart you believe that real Taijiquan does not have fighting ability. But, you don’t want to say it out loud, right?

Xu: No, what I really think is, pay attention to what I say, eh? I think that they don’t exist in 99% of practitioners. But that 1%. And, this is why I try to challenge people here and there. I hope to meet that 1%. . . .

I saw Dacheng Quan (Yi Quan), Tongbei Quan, Baijiquan, Wing Chun. Those arts have some real fighting skills. Even if I believe their training system is outdated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQxxt0H8DJM
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:32 pm

marvin8 wrote:Wei did not have the "valid skill sets" to defend himself in a fight. "What he did before served him well with those he interacted with until," he needed them in a fight. Wei is not "confused as to the purpose of his own martial arts training." He is "clear" that one of the purposes of his training is to defend himself in a fight, against punches. That is why Wei chose to start kickboxing lessons.

Another mind reader. :P who knows why he started it or what the purpose of his own training is or was. all one can say is that he lost a fight using a method that did not seem to work out to well in that environment. He must have felt it was sufficient in other environments to have continued it for so long.

One could say the purposes of whats called martial arts is to understand the self, and empty it...this speaks to it

"THE UNFETTERED MIND
WRITINGS OF THE ZEN MASTER TO THE SWORD MASTER
TAKUAN SOHO



"The point of developing a skill is to" know, understand and have the ability to use the skill when it is needed.


needed for what? maybe the point of his prior skill was one of understanding confrontations before they happened and avoiding them
before they begin or being able to defuse them by what ever means.


windwalker wrote:David Chin a noted hop gar teacher, has different classes according to peoples needs, expectations,
and the environments they intend to use them in. He among others are a good example of someone whos keeping the CMA tradition alive
while adapting them to today's market place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHxCvLGE_qw

Per the video, David Chin has added modern training to the traditional "hop gar." Wei has also added modern training.


I don't really think you understand hop gar enough to know what is modern training or not. What he is doing would not be considered
hop gar but allows his fighters to use some aspects of it modified to the environment they fight in. Someone who's only trained in hop gar
should be able to function in the same environment as they have in the past.
"
To further his name Wong built a Lei Tai in Canton and challenged all comers. He was attempting to raise money for his new school. In the week’s time he is said to have bested 150 challengers. After this he was instrumental in organizing the famed Ten Tigers of Canton, with Wong himself the “No.1 Tiger”.
. "

As mentioned hes adapted to the market place allowing those interested in competing a chance to compete. ...

For the taiji teacher, It remains to be seen as to how or if he can intragate what he learns into his prior training
My bet would be no...many reasons not germane to this thread

I do wish him well and hope he reaches the point of his training that he is looking for.

What happens if he now meets a grappler and does not do well..
Will he then start grappling will this be the answer ?
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby Steve James on Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:04 pm

If Wei plans to defend himself in a street fight, is he "doing the right thing?"


You must mean a schoolyard "fight," not a street fight. If he wants to win a street fight, he'll bring a weapon or/and cheat. I.e., it's a competition, and the next "Fight" (afawk) will probably have the same rules as the last. The guy is preparing for what he expects, and he's presumably doing it with opponents similar to one he expects. That's what any good boxer would do.

What happens if he now meets a grappler and does not do well..
Will he then start grappling will this be the answer ?


Nothing says that he won't study grappling, one way or the other, and there's no reason why he shouldn't --whether he uses it or not. He's doing it for his own martial and personal development. And, it's not even up to us to say whether it's good or not. He's preparing to fight for himself. Win or lose, it won't prove anything about tcc or ima.
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Re: Taiji Master That Xu Xiaodong KOed Now Trains In Kickboxing

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:55 pm

Steve James wrote:
Nothing says that he won't study grappling, one way or the other, and there's no reason why he shouldn't --whether he uses it or not. He's doing it for his own martial and personal development. And, it's not even up to us to say whether it's good or not. He's preparing to fight for himself. Win or lose, it won't prove anything about tcc or ima.


agee, my point was that he could have looked within his own system to find the answers, depending on what answers he was looking for.
If its about fixing his understanding of taiji, what he's doing now wont help him....if its about getting into or being able to hang in a ring
what hes doing now should be useful.

If its about dealing with the mythical street fighter, as you noted its a different type of skill and training outlook, depending if one happens to be
the streetfighter or the one who happens to fight one.

Some try to make it about CMA, TCC or IMA. This is the draw and selling point.

Xu: No, what I really think is, pay attention to what I say, eh? I think that they don’t exist in 99% of practitioners. But that 1%. And, this is why I try to challenge people here and there. I hope to meet that 1%. . . .

I saw Dacheng Quan (Yi Quan), Tongbei Quan, Baijiquan, Wing Chun. Those arts have some real fighting skills. Even if I believe their training system is outdated.


He says he wants to find the 1% . In China people know who's, who....there are people at night in the parks who have informal fight clubs going on..he knows this, most people that I've met do, maybe with others its different they don't know. If or had he really wanted to meet some skilled people, should be very easy....its china....

marketing 101

gotta make a living.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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