Abandoning Force — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

[marvin8]

Discover Taiji
Published on Aug 9, 2018

Teaching moment from the 2018 Prague camp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhkk8KaOlLw

[origami_itto]

So difficult and counterintuitive, but the only way this stuff actually works.

[Interloper]

I think that it stops being counterintuitive when the context is understood. It's not that force is being abandoned; there's force happening. What is abandoned is muscling in the arms, shoulders and upper back, while supportive structure is created in the arms (and body) by a mechanical manipulation of specific muscles and tissues, not in the arms, which allows you to use your arms as a conduit for force generated elsewhere in the body, rather than as force generators themselves. So, you can be light at the point of contact, yet still be able to both receive and redirect your partner's force through your arms and body, and deliver force through your body and arms to the point of contact.

[GrahamB]

Nope - got nothing nice to say about this, so not going to say anything - lol

[windwalker]

I think that it stops being counterintuitive when the context is understood. It's not that force is being abandoned; there's force happening. What is abandoned is muscling in the arms, shoulders and upper back, while supportive structure is created in the arms (and body) by a mechanical manipulation of specific muscles and tissues, not in the arms, which allows you to use your arms as a conduit for force generated elsewhere in the body, rather than as force generators themselves. Interesting, he specifically says this is not how he does it

00:17
so the idea is that you abandon force
00:15
now
00:17
force means leave okay there's still a
00:20
kind of power but that power comes from
00:21
abandoning leave now most people don't
00:24
want to believe it they think you have a
00:26
hidden li inside the body
00:27
you suddenly contract you relax here but
00:31
you're stiff there or something like
00:32
that so this is one of the blocks that
00:33
makes you not develop you must have
00:36
faith in abandoning Li so we do the
00:38
drill like he's going to try me and the

So, you can be light at the point of contact, yet still be able to both receive and redirect your partner's force through your arms and body, and deliver force through your body and arms to the point of contact.

[Bao]

So difficult and counterintuitive, but the only way this stuff actually works.

Agreed, it is. At least I do agree with what he says in the beginning, this is very much the mind-set you need to work from and try to do. It is counterintuitive because the natural reaction is to tense up to protect yourself or to use muscular strength. It takes a lot of practice to re-wire your impulses.

Otoh, he only says a part of what he actually does and only a fraction of what you need to make it work. The qi talk is unnecessary, but at least he admits that you don’t need to think about it, so better just don’t think about qi or similar.

Both WW and interloper have good points, imo. They seem to contradict each other but actually don’t.

[Interloper]

windwalker,

It's semantics. He is not "abandoning force," he is abandoning muscling to the point of contact. Everything else he's doing in his body is generating force, and his arms (or wherever he makes the point of contact) are relaxed and structurally supported by other mechanisms in his body... so they don't have to generate force themselves to "push" a person away.

[windwalker]

windwalker,

It's semantics. He is not "abandoning force," he is abandoning muscling to the point of contact. Everything else he's doing in his body is generating force, and his arms (or wherever he makes the point of contact) are relaxed and structurally supported by other mechanisms in his body... so they don't have to generate force themselves to "push" a person away.

I'm not the one you have to convince although I dont agree with what you posted earlier or now. Just pointing out what he "said" is happening is not what you feel is happening, he specifically addressed that point. In most cases he's not pushing someone away, I would bet if you asked most of them they would say they didn't feel anything and dont quite understand how or why they move.

What I use in my own work is a "wave"

Which for most would be counter intuitive until one is able to as some might say separate yin from the yang, or separate
their body from the energy that moves through it.

"In physics, a wave is a disturbance that transfers energy through matter or space, with little or no associated mass transport"

which for me answers most if not all questions of whats being done, how its being done, and why people react the way they do when they encounter it.

This is what I work on, with, and view things through....
Using a wave is counterintuitive for most people, in the medium that the body operates in it's not really designed to be used in such a way.

While I don't agree with his explanations, its his way of explaining what he feels he's doing.


This teacher mentions another method and seems to view some of what adam talks about as a beginning level of understanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocPQu4llncQ


He talks in terms of mechanics and gears, also something I would not agree with, others might.

[Interloper]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't need to "convince" anyone. I can demonstrate what he is doing, and explain the mechanics of it. "Internals" are not mysterious magic; the human body and its ability to move are finite, and he is not doing anything new or different than hundreds of taiji- and other internal artists have done before him. Just because you may not know how he is doing what he does, doesn't mean others can't or don't know, either.

He is using esoteric, poetic, "intuitive" language, which is part and parcel of the tradition of Chinese internal arts. But if you keep fixating on the term "abandon force," you won't see the moon, so to speak. There can be no power without "force," and no force without body movement. He's not being a limp noodle, he is like the proverbial duck swimming through the water. All appears calm and tranquil above the surface, but if you look below the surface, the duck's feet are paddling like hell. He's got a number of body qualities going, in order to create the six-directional force he needs to have those effects on his partner. Then, it's just a matter of tweaking certain things to "shape" the force to attain specific directions and effects.

windwalker,

It's semantics. He is not "abandoning force," he is abandoning muscling to the point of contact. Everything else he's doing in his body is generating force, and his arms (or wherever he makes the point of contact) are relaxed and structurally supported by other mechanisms in his body... so they don't have to generate force themselves to "push" a person away.

I'm not the one you have to convince although I dont agree with what you posted earlier or now. Just pointing out what he "said" is happening is not what you feel is happening, he specifically addressed that point. In most cases he's not pushing someone away, I would bet if you asked most of them they would say they didn't feel anything and dont quite understand how or why they move.

What I use in my own work is a "wave"

Which for most would be counter intuitive until one is able to as some might say separate yin from the yang, or separate
their body from the energy that moves through it.

"In physics, a wave is a disturbance that transfers energy through matter or space, with little or no associated mass transport"

which for me answers most if not all questions of whats being done, how its being done, and why people react the way they do when they encounter it.

This is what I work on, with, and view things through....
Using a wave is counterintuitive for most people, in the medium that the body operates in it's not really designed to be used in such a way.

While I don't agree with his explanations, its his way of explaining what he feels he's doing.


This teacher mentions another method and seems to view some of what adam talks about as a beginning level of understanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocPQu4llncQ


He talks in terms of mechanics and gears, also something I would not agree with, others might.

[windwalker]

by Interloper on Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:50 pm

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't need to "convince" anyone. I can demonstrate what he is doing, and explain the mechanics of it. "Internals" are not mysterious magic; the human body and its ability to move are finite, and he is not doing anything new or different than hundreds of taiji- and other internal artists have done before him. Just because you may not know how he is doing what he does, doesn't mean others can't or don't know, either.

You mean the basic stuff he shows...


He explains things to those he teaches in the way that he feels is best for his group and understanding.
The demos he uses are very basic, I don't use the same verbiage to describe whats going on or how they'er done.

You also dont agree with the verbiage your point is?

[Steve James]

I think one can "abandon" force semantically, but not physically. In tcc, it's clear that the admonition is to "use qi not li," but that's a concept. The body needs to exert force/strength/effort to work. In terms of tactical application, one of my old teachers preferred to say "don't struggle." That concept worked for me conceptually and practically. So, I agree with the idea of abandoning force, but don't believe it's literally possible in the physical sense.

Another teacher argued that one needed to find methods that didn't depend on using force was simply because the opponent could always have more force. Techniques that work when the opponent is stronger will work when the opponent is weaker. However, he'd also say that you should use your force if you have more. (Controversial, I'm sure). His argument that if you had more force, it was the opponent's problem to deal with.

In any case, the idea of "abandoning force" is important to have in mind, whether or not it's physically possible. It's like the term "relax" or any number of tcc sayings.

[Bao]

The main idea here, regardless how you explain some effects shown in a demo, is not a saying or theory, it's about something most practical, something you must practically do. It's about something most practical, something very useful and actually, something not very complicated.

One simple aspect about relaxing the body so to not use strength - when in movement and when in action - is about developing and use whole body power, about using the strength from your whole body all of the time. The idea is to use body movement without unnecessary tension. If you tense up any part of your body, that part of your body will carry strength and your whole body strength will be gone. So you can't let another person's strength or tension affect your own state of relaxation. Regardless what you feel you must keep relaxed and continue to relax. To achieve this state where you always can maintain full relaxed breath and whole body strength you need to work with the mind-set to completely give up using muscular tension. Anyone who practice tai chi knows that it's extremely hard to go through a whole form with a very relaxed body state all of the time or not to tense up then and then. How hard isn't it to always keep a relaxed state when you do free push hands or when sometime tries to push you around? If you don't understand to move and act with a deeper state of relaxation, you will never be able to always control your muscular tension. Then, if someone try to push you around, grab you or throw you, you just won't have enough body control to handle the situation as someone use strength against you.

I am surprised that so many don't understand this even on a very basic level and believe that relaxing doesn't work. People just don't want to invest in relaxation. Or spend enough time to make it work. So some martial oriented people prefer to practice Tai Chi on a technical level only and probably believe that treating Tai Chi as external Jujutsu or Karate would help them to fight better. And still, what I wrote above is just about developing a more relaxed state on a very rudimentary level.

[charles]

I think the video is another - by him and many others - in a series of poor pedagogy in how to teach something.

First, the words he uses aren't accurately describing what he is actually doing. It is misleading and prevents students from progressing more directly. It keeps things in the realm of being mysterious. Only the smart ones will figure out that what he is doing isn't what he says he is doing.

Second, defining one thing in terms of something else that is ill-defined or "mysterious" isn't helpful. He states, "Force means li". He's free to define the words he uses any way he chooses, as many teachers do. Choosing to define a common English language term in terms of a poorly understood - by his largely English-speaking student base - Chinese term leaves the term "force" - the thing he is stating to abandon - vague. The result is he is stating that students should abandon something, but it isn't entirely clear what, exactly one strives to abandon.

If his particular definition of the terms he uses differs from common usage of those terms, it is up to the student to understand the particular definition of the word he is using. My experience with such teachers has been that many of their students don't pick up on that. "Abandon force" is one such example. As Interloper points out, interaction in the world involves forces. One cannot chose to "abandon" them anymore than one can "chose" to abandon gravity. What one can do is to interact with the forces in different ways. Stating that one "abandons" them - using the common understanding of the word - leads students way down a non-productive rabbit hole.

Last, the goal, in traditional practice, is not to "abandon force", nor is that what he is demonstrating. The goal is to learn how to interact in specific ways with forces that are applied. In traditional language, to learn how to change in response to those applied forces so that one avoids being injured by or overcome by the applied forces. A primary technique is to avoid applying opposing applied forces that creates a situation wherein the greater magnitude of force wins - a contest of strength where the stronger wins. Neither the goal nor the method is to "abandon force". That is misleading and will likely take students in the wrong direction for years to come, chasing a misunderstanding.

For progress to occur, the focus should be on understanding the incoming forces and how to specifically interact with them, not on some vague notion that something called "force" should be "abandoned".

[Fa Xing]

I can't wait to see someone smash this fraud. That's the only mean thing I'll say about it.

[Interloper]

I think one can "abandon" force semantically, but not physically. In tcc, it's clear that the admonition is to "use qi not li," but that's a concept. The body needs to exert force/strength/effort to work. In terms of tactical application, one of my old teachers preferred to say "don't struggle." That concept worked for me conceptually and practically. So, I agree with the idea of abandoning force, but don't believe it's literally possible in the physical sense.

Agreed. That's what I was trying to say.