Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby Trick on Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:50 pm

Bugang wrote:Throw away that 24!

And practice a lot more ZZ.
If you know HOW to do it properly you know WHY you do it.

ZZ. If know how do it properly then one know how it’s in the Taijiquan form too. 8-)
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby Trick on Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:56 pm

Bao wrote:

Tai Chi is everything you can use it as. That is the meaning of the term Tai Chi = potential. I see it very much as a science to understand the balance and structure of a human body in movement. I also see it as an art of self-knowledge and a way of how to translate this knowledge into a knowledge about others.

This I agree very much on. If I just wanted to know how to throw people to the ground I’d go study wrestling, or boxing if I just want to punch people in the head 8-)
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:31 am

Bao wrote:
This is in line with my understanding of Taiji as being primarily a wrestling art.


That’s your personal opinion only.

Some people use it foremost as a sort of wrestling art, others use it as a punching art, others focus on qinna and yet others see it as a blend of these and other aspects. And still there are other views.

Tai Chi is everything you can use it as. That is the meaning of the term Tai Chi = potential. I see it very much as a science to understand the balance and structure of a human body in movement. I also see it as an art of self-knowledge and a way of how to translate this knowledge into a knowledge about others.

This sounds confused. Taiji comes from the i-ching book of changes applied to a body of movement that has become
known to represent it. There is a range of movement that if one is talking about what is called taiji that recognized as such that should embody
principles embodied in the philosophy..


IMO principles are important not if you use principles for punching, throwing or qinna.
If you limit yourself to this or that you might miss something very important about the essence of the art, the potential and possibilities to use Tai Chi principles in many different ways, unrehearsed and spontaneously.

All CMA move though the 3 ranges of combat with some specializing in certain ranges. The methods they use give them
the distinction of a style. MMA currently reflects a method that is free from a specific style hence the attention given to a practitioner over the style they
practice. In CMA its the opposite


As JW,

might say there is only one use for MA.

Historically past masters of the art very much embody this
and went out to demo and prove their art...

This is not so in todays time publicly.

If some for example says they practice yang's style or chen's style
the only way to judge it is to examine if it truly reflects the basic
premises of their art....Unfortnetly with no modern examples this is hard to do
which why some might say that as long as it fits within the principles it can be called taiji.

Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it. My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style]. My father practiced it. I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!


http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:53 am

He is one of the few Chen guys I really like
But the old chestnut ,my grandfather invented it so I got it right doesn't mean much
Plenty of people use that one but don't have his skill
My teacher called that
Skill by association
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:33 am

This sounds confused. Taiji comes from the i-ching book of changes applied to a body of movement that has become
known to represent it. There is a range of movement that if one is talking about what is called taiji that recognized as such that should embody principles embodied in the philosophy...


Yijing consists of three parts. One is old, the two others are less old. The term Tai Chi was coined by Zhou Yi. Why it is in the Yijing is because it is mentioned in the comments that were compiled by Zhouyi. Tai Chi was his name and his explanation of one of the foundation principles in the Yijing.

Not the best translation of Taiji Tushou, but anyway:

“Non-polar (wuji) and yet Supreme Polarity (taiji)! The Supreme Polarity in activity generates yang; yet at the limit of activity it is still. In stillness it generates yin; yet at the limit of stillness it is also active. Activity and stillness alternate; each is the basis of the other. In distinguishing yin and yang, the Two Modes are thereby established.

The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them. The Five Phases are simply yin and yang; yin and yang are simply the Supreme Polarity; the Supreme Polarity is fundamentally Non-polar. [Yet] in the generation of the Five Phases, each one has its nature.
[...]”


Tai Chi was more or less Chouyi’s interpretation of the Daoist concept of De or Water, which was the Virtue, Power or the creative active expression of the Dao. This creative force was what turned things into existence, from non-being (Wu) into being (you). In a philosophical, non-religious manner, “De” is sometimes called “potential” by western scholars and so does “Tai Chi”. It has the potential to make anything to come into existence, before things come into existence, they remain as a potential.

You can see Chinese Characters as “potentials”, they are ideas that can mean or be used in many different ways, but they don’t get their exact meaning until they are put into a specific context. This is true for a Tai Chi posture/movement as well. In solo practice, it merely remains as an idea, a symbolic represention of many possible ways of use. In the actual context, the idea becomes something else that has meaning.

...Use of Tai Chi Chuan must obviously be according to T’ai Chi Ch’uan principles...
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:33 am

Bao wrote:
This sounds confused. Taiji comes from the i-ching book of changes applied to a body of movement that has become
known to represent it. There is a range of movement that if one is talking about what is called taiji that recognized as such that should embody principles embodied in the philosophy...


Yijing consists of three parts. One is old, the two others are less old. The term Tai Chi was coined by Zhou Yi. Why it is in the Yijing is because it is mentioned in the comments that were compiled by Zhouyi. Tai Chi was his name and his explanation of one of the foundation principles in the Yijing.

Not the best translation of Taiji Tushou, but anyway:

“Non-polar (wuji) and yet Supreme Polarity (taiji)! The Supreme Polarity in activity generates yang; yet at the limit of activity it is still. In stillness it generates yin; yet at the limit of stillness it is also active. Activity and stillness alternate; each is the basis of the other. In distinguishing yin and yang, the Two Modes are thereby established.

The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them. The Five Phases are simply yin and yang; yin and yang are simply the Supreme Polarity; the Supreme Polarity is fundamentally Non-polar. [Yet] in the generation of the Five Phases, each one has its nature.
[...]”


Tai Chi was more or less Chouyi’s interpretation of the Daoist concept of De or Water, which was the Virtue, Power or the creative active expression of the Dao. This creative force was what turned things into existence, from non-being (Wu) into being (you). In a philosophical, non-religious manner, “De” is sometimes called “potential” by western scholars and so does “Tai Chi”. It has the potential to make anything to come into existence, before things come into existence, they remain as a potential.

You can see Chinese Characters as “potentials”, they are ideas that can mean or be used in many different ways, but they don’t get their exact meaning until they are put into a specific context. This is true for a Tai Chi posture/movement as well. In solo practice, it merely remains as an idea, a symbolic represention of many possible ways of use. In the actual context, the idea becomes something else that has meaning.

...Use of Tai Chi Chuan must obviously be according to T’ai Chi Ch’uan principles...

By that line of reasoning anything could be labeled as such but are not, why ?


Because the terminology was applied to a certain set of movements

The famed Wu Tunan (also known as the Northern Star of Taijiquan) was in charge. A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles,leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged. Some suggested that it belonged to the External Division. At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan. What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category.

Others countered that it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan, so it should be included as part of the Internal Division. Master Wu Tunan did not concur. He felt that Chen Style should be treated as an external style, similar to Shaolin. Someone turned to Chen Fake, Master Chen, you are the standard bearer of the Chen Family, is it external or internal?


From the link I posted..... not worth arguing about. It is notable that taiji is one of the only arts that many say doesn't have to look like anything and yet argue about movements and whether a certain choreography is attributed to a such, and such teacher ect.

Ong felt that Yang's movements and techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the philosophy of Taiji. Ong wrote for him a matching verse:

“ Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes. ”
Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan


Seems pretty straightforward to me..

There are only a few recognized family styles and famous sub style derived from family systems but still attributed to them.
If the leaders of the styles were out publicly showing and proving their family arts most of the discussions would be mote people would know
there would be no question...

All things by their nature have taiji.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:28 am

windwalker wrote:
The famed Wu Tunan (also known as the Northern Star of Taijiquan) was in charge. A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles,leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged. Some suggested that it belonged to the External Division. At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan. What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category.

Others countered that it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan, so it should be included as part of the Internal Division. Master Wu Tunan did not concur. He felt that Chen Style should be treated as an external style, similar to Shaolin. Someone turned to Chen Fake, Master Chen, you are the standard bearer of the Chen Family, is it external or internal?



Seems pretty straightforward to me..
.

Are these two quotes from that same Taiji get together meeting ? First it say Chen family boxing is not called Taijiquan ? Then in the next it say “it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan”......First : “Master Chen’s answer: I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!”......Second quote above......Confusing, who after all began calling it Chen style Taijiquan ?
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:29 am

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
.
...Confusing, who after all began calling it Chen style Taijiquan ?


When Yang Cheng Fu left Beijing Chen Fake arrived the same city. Probably he wanted to earn fame and money as well and called Chen Boxing “Taijiquan” because Yang Chengfu’s art was already called so. Then he claimed that Yang Luchan was not the creator of his art because Yang had lived in the Chen village.

Yes I would say that it’s more confusing than clear. I am not going into the if Chen style is Tai Chi discussion.

In my view there are no styles, only Tai Chi and not Tai Chi, bad Tai Chi and good Tai Chi, less focus on T’ai Chi Ch’uan and more focus on Tai Chi principles. There’s always a point when you can’t label something as Tai Chi even as it looks as Tai Chi. That goes for every style, Chen, Yang, Wu, Hao or Sun. It’s the same for all of them. If the teacher understand T’ai Chi Ch’uan principles and know how to put them into practice, then what he does is Tai Chi Ch’uan.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:36 am

Trick wrote:[
Are these two quotes from that same Taiji get together meeting ? First it say Chen family boxing is not called Taijiquan ? Then in the next it say “it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan”......First : “Master Chen’s answer: I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!”......Second quote above......Confusing, who after all began calling it Chen style Taijiquan ?


http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/

Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it. My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style]. My father practiced it. I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!


It should be noted as to when taijiquan was used to describe a body of work

Ong felt that Yang's movements and techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the philosophy of Taiji. Ong wrote for him a matching verse:

“Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes. ”
Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan


the distinction of taijiquan came into being with yang's style before this time referred to by other names.
The Chen style was being judged against what people of that time thought taiji was, as compared with yang style to which
the name taijiquan was first applied. .

The history is interesting

Regardless there are differences not really what the thread is about.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:52 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
.
...Confusing, who after all began calling it Chen style Taijiquan ?


When Yang Cheng Fu left Beijing Chen Fake arrived the same city. Probably he wanted to earn fame and money as well and called Chen Boxing “Taijiquan” because Yang Chengfu’s art was already called so. Then he claimed that Yang Luchan was not the creator of his art because Yang had lived in the Chen village.
.

Yes this seem to be the case. But in that quote WW posted, Chen Fake state at the meeting(in Beijing?) that his method does not go by the name Taijiquan....Maybe he soon after that realized it was best to adopt the name Taijiquan, maybe if not because of anything else but just to annoy “The Northern Star”? 8-)
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby DiaitaDoc on Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:22 pm

Postures 14-17, finishing up the first section of the form.

I'm not altogether satisfied with cross hands, but it's ok for now.

If you're talking about it, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:01 pm

DiaitaDoc wrote:I'm not altogether satisfied with cross hands, but it's ok for now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5nNz8jXIFw


Is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11e2POq3INs

if you watch some boxing clips you might see some foot work
that addresses head on attacks or defenses and moves them
to a lateral position.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:26 pm

Trick wrote:...Maybe he soon after that realized it was best to adopt the name Taijiquan, maybe if not because of anything else but just to annoy “The Northern Star”? 8-)



I think it makes a lot of this confusing yang, never called his art taiji, according to what I've read.

It was a name applied to it. The meeting was about weather the Chen style should be included in the same family as the styles drived from Yang's style commonly known as taiji.

The inclusion was out of respect acknowledging the Chen style as the ancestor.

In today's time it's all about marketing.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby DiaitaDoc on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:10 pm

Here's the next video - "Embrace tiger, return to mountain" and "Hide fist under elbow".

Last edited by DiaitaDoc on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Yang Style TaiJi Technique Catalog

Postby DiaitaDoc on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:32 pm

Here's my next installement: Repulse Monkey, Diagonal Flying, Raise Hands & Step Up.

Ryan, my usual training partner, was unavailable, so Arthur was kind enough to help me film. He's an older gentleman, so the throws and takedowns I performed were slower and gentler than they could potentially be. Arthur also has a background in some form of Japanese art that has Uke, and he was a little over-compliant at times. Nevertheless, we got the basic gist of the applications filmed, and had a good time.

If you're talking about it, you're doing it wrong.
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