CZQ vs The Clench

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CZQ vs The Clench

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:26 am

William Miller wrote:A funny day in my Chen shi Taijiquan journey. This is interesting on a technical level as well as weird position to be in when at a workshop.

In a good way it is a type of exploration, reality check and discovery.

It is also a moment of Chen Ziqiang trying to save face and on my part not wanting to be seen as the one causing a problem for a well respected teacher.

Anyway as he said this is a problem.


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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Bill on Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:38 am

Interesting clip. Thanks
Some thoughts...
1. How do Thai boxers deal with it. Its always good to learn from those with experience.
2. If its not a ring fight then groin strike is always an option.
3. Perhaps grab his elbows and lift upwards, although this might open you up for a knee to the body.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:27 pm

Bill wrote:Interesting clip. Thanks
Some thoughts...
1. How do Thai boxers deal with it. Its always good to learn from those with experience.
2. If its not a ring fight then groin strike is always an option.
3. Perhaps grab his elbows and lift upwards, although this might open you up for a knee to the body.

Yes. Here is one of many videos on escape from the clinch.

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Train alongside Paul at the next Nak Muay Nation Training camp at Khongsittha Gym in Thailand! === http://www.ThailandTrainingCamp.com

The Muay Thai clinch can be a deadly spot to be in if you don't know how to properly defend yourself. Being stuck in your opponents plum will leave you vulnerable to knees, elbows and getting swept... which is no fun at all.

Learning some of the basic Muay Thai clinch defenses will help you avoid these dangerous positions. In this tutorial, Paul Banasiak from Muay Thai Athlete shows 3 of his favorite Muay Thai clinch escapes that he uses in training and in fights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4xU0JIuBo
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:41 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
William Miller wrote:It is also a moment of Chen Ziqiang trying to save face and on my part not wanting to be seen as the one causing a problem for a well respected teacher.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2_HnOlhaWE


An attempt to use hard strength with a purely technical approach... :-\

Bill wrote:1. How do Thai boxers deal with it. Its always good to learn from those with experience.


I practiced Thai Boxing for a year (yeah, hard to believe, right? ;D ). The TB vid above show just about what we did. Neck wrestling was all about getting inside the other person's arms and directly grab the neck. ... which made it incredibly boring after a couple of classes. :P

So first try to get inside his arms.

3. Perhaps grab his elbows and lift upwards, although this might open you up for a knee to the body.


Pushing up or lifting upwards is mostly useless. His weight is always down as he tries to drag you down. You would go against his whole weight if you try to press up, not easy with such a big guy.

This is a fun task to work with. I haven't though about this in a very long time. I know how Thai Boxers think and move, so I'll try to practice this ... :)
Last edited by Bao on Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:46 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
William Miller wrote:A funny day in my Chen shi Taijiquan journey. This is interesting on a technical level as well as weird position to be in when at a workshop.

In a good way it is a type of exploration, reality check and discovery.

It is also a moment of Chen Ziqiang trying to save face and on my part not wanting to be seen as the one causing a problem for a well respected teacher.

Anyway as he said this is a problem.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2_HnOlhaWE


Interesting clip in many aspects.
The assumption being that he would be able to last long enough to be clenched from a Thai boxer.

Historically with Chinese Fighters this has not been the case, they get knocked out.

The second point being the he does not really use one of the core ideas of taiji. In the clip of the Thai boxing they have a very simple and elegant way of doing it in accordance with taiji principles.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
William Miller wrote:A funny day in my Chen shi Taijiquan journey. This is interesting on a technical level as well as weird position to be in when at a workshop.

In a good way it is a type of exploration, reality check and discovery.

It is also a moment of Chen Ziqiang trying to save face and on my part not wanting to be seen as the one causing a problem for a well respected teacher.

Anyway as he said this is a problem.




That's the same black guy who tossed CZQ using sacrifice throws in a clip that surfaced a few years back. He obviously has a background in grappling arts -- most likely Judo.



Call me old-fashioned, but I personally feel it's rude and unnecessary to resist and make a teacher lose face like that in front of a roomful of students. If you want to test a teacher's skill, the traditional way is to go at it behind closed doors.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:14 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Call me old-fashioned, but I personally feel it's rude and unnecessary to resist and make a teacher lose face like that in front of a roomful of students. If you want to test a teacher's skill, the traditional way is to go at it behind closed doors.


Depends on the nature of the situation, I guess. If the agreement was "don't comply" then I'd say he was in line. I mean, what's worse when you get down to it, a technique failing or someone faking an effective technique? Was it a demo or a test?
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby jaime_g on Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:15 pm

Not surprised -shrug-
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby GrahamB on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:53 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
William Miller wrote:A funny day in my Chen shi Taijiquan journey. This is interesting on a technical level as well as weird position to be in when at a workshop.

In a good way it is a type of exploration, reality check and discovery.

It is also a moment of Chen Ziqiang trying to save face and on my part not wanting to be seen as the one causing a problem for a well respected teacher.

Anyway as he said this is a problem.




Thanks for the clip.

First, where is this from? Where is the text quoted from? It's not in the video description... Posted on a forum somewhere?

Second - here is the danger of trying to do a grappling technique that's not based on leverage against somebody who significantly outweighs you. And pain compliance only works if they comply!

I don't think it's being disrespectful at all to not being a typical demo stooge - what is being shown has to work, if it doesn't work you're all just kidding yourselves. Mr Miller wasn't doing anything apart from exactly what CZQ asked him to do - just hold a Thai Clinch.

You win or you learn. Mr Chen has the opportunity to learn something right there, which I think he did.

Third. Mr Miller doesn't know how to spell "clinch". ;D
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby middleway on Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:10 am

Mr Miller wasn't doing anything apart from exactly what CZQ asked him to do - just hold a Thai Clinch.


Amen. People only think its disrespectful cause of the names involved.

I like to take the teachers name out of the equation when looking at things like this. I want to look objectively at the interaction.

If these are 'just 2 guys' then the little guys ideas are obviously flawed and his power generation not sufficient to make his idea work. I believe he was REALLY trying in the video, when the larger guy was holding a simple, and not very powerful clinch.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby wiesiek on Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:43 am

really strange try from skilled man like Mr Chen - hard karate like attack from the outside,
even more strange, that he is pulling it out for bigger , visibly stronger opponent, and, as you guys told - judoka.
Simply goin` from inside and turn will be looks much more TJ then this! :o
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby wiesiek on Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:46 am

don`t know whole context, dough
maybe he i showing : how not to do? :)
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby GrahamB on Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:52 am

I've been thinking about this clip, and what would a Chen-devotee say about it...

I came to the conclusion that their first line of defence would be "CZQ is choosing not to break the elbow of the big guy because he's being nice". ;D

People will bend reality to fit their views to an alarming degree.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby wiesiek on Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:55 am

-lol- -rock- -argh-
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:12 am

Agreed, not rude or unnecessary. The guy just did what he was told.

Watched it again. Starting from about 0.38, he starts do something right, he reaches inside of the big guy's arm. But the big guy just slips back in. If CZQ had continued that strategy he might have been able to pull something of, but that is his only attempt to do something right.

The weird thing is that he starts from a clinch position where the other fellow already had a big advantage. The right thing from a Tai Chi perspective would be to work with timing and distance and trying to not get into that position in the first place. But I think that he was maybe teaching something quite specific and that he is very much trying to make a certain technique or a very specific method to work, maybe a technique that he is used to work with and that he is used to be able to get right. The problem here is that some of the context from the class is lacking. At one or two points late in the clip, CZQ manages to get his back straight and create distance, but he is not using this to his advantage as to create leverage. Instead he goes right back into a position where he has less advantage. This make me believe that his main concern was not actually to get out of the hold, but more to get certain techniques to work. Maybe due to the class situation and about what he was teaching there.

GrahamB wrote:I came to the conclusion that their first line of defence would be "CZQ is choosing not to break the elbow of the big guy because he's being nice". ;D


;D Lol!

But he tried. He hit his arms and elbows quite hard. :-\
Last edited by Bao on Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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