CZQ vs The Clench

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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Bhassler on Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:34 am

Many would argue that the current Chen village version of Chen taiji is not reflective of the classical training, methods, and application of the art. Because someone has lived in the village has the Chen family name does not automatically make them representative of the art in it's entirety (outside of commercial purposes). I've pushed with CZQ, and I've even defended him on this forum as being very good at what he does-- but what he does is not where I would look for real fighting skills (whether for sport or for street).
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:17 am

middleway wrote:So, with that context and with how ill equipped he seemed to be against this simple control, both in terms of body power and tactical approach, what is the attraction to Chen Style tai chi for people who are looking for fighting, or even grappling skills?


Yeah, that's an honest question.

Yang and Wu stylists speak about practicing principles as following, guiding, timing, structure, leverage.

Some Chen branches (read: village Chen) seem to not care about principle and only practice specific techniques. And again, it's probably a result of the competition format. They practice what works on the mat with a specific rule set, Tai Chi wrestling. So I guess if you want to compete and win in this specific format, this is one way to practice. :P
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:07 pm

Middleway, 100% agreed!
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby charles on Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:11 pm

middleway wrote:So, with that context and with how ill equiped he seemed to be against this simple control, both in terms of body power and tactical approach, what is the attraction to Chen Style tai chi for people who are looking for fighting, or even grappling skills?

Again ... not to be dickish, its an honest question.


It's a good question. Perhaps a better question is, what is the attraction to ANY style of Taijiquan for people who are looking for fighting, or even grappling skills?

Very, very few of the millions of Taijiquan practitioners worldwide have much beyond rudimentary fighting and/or grappling skills. There are Taijiquan practitioners who have well-developed skills, but they are few and far between, regardless of Taijiquan style. The odds of finding one and having one teach you those skills are slim: you have to really want it and be willing to go where the skills are. Many Taijiquan practitioners who actually have some fighting skills are simply using what they've learned in other arts and calling it Taijiquan.

If one is really interested in fighting and grappling skills there are far more efficient and direct ways to learn them then to pursue those skills in Taijiquan.

Chen style is simply a subset of the larger situation with Taijiquan in general.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby GrahamB on Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:06 pm

"So, with that context and with how ill equiped he seemed to be against this simple control, both in terms of body power and tactical approach, what is the attraction to Chen Style tai chi for people who are looking for fighting, or even grappling skills?

Again ... not to be dickish, its an honest question."

Good question! An honest answer however would be to play the ball not the man.

I've seen you say here, countless times, that you don't believe in styles, just skills, so by the same logic you can't then assume he is "Chen style" just because his name is Chen. He isn't - he's just a man.

I'm pretty sure that if his life experience had been as working as a security guard and bouncer on the door for years after growing up in Chen village he'd be a different sort of fighter ;D Or if he'd entered the MMA world 5 years ago and trained for that, he'd be different again. He'd still be described as a Chen stylist.

I don't know. I guess if I want real fighting skills I wouldn't go to learn from somebody who has never had to use them for real. His "style" wouldn't be the issue.

I just spent the day up in Wales with my Tai Chi teacher getting effortlessly battered. He's got plenty of "real life" experience I think we have all met these sort of people in the Tai Chi world. Once you do, you don't need to question - it's just there and obvious ;D
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby wiesiek on Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:47 am

so
on the end of the day - if you have time and determination your internal skilz may became work, even if you don`t have TJ.../put the style here/ name on the belt. :)
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:20 am

The only reason this is a topic is because of CZQ's status as a real Chen tcc lineage holder. The only conclusion is that in this case it didn't matter.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:51 am

middleway wrote:The question that comes to my head is this ... and i really dont mean this to be dickish..

CZQ is often touted as the apex of the 'fighters' from Chen Village. He has had more exposure to the art at its source than most people he will encounter, certainly more experience of Taiji than the clincher here and i would wager MANY more hours of total Martial Arts training. In fact i would wager he probably has more hours 'training martial arts' than most professional MMA fighters, Olympian Judoka or BJJ black belts.

I would expect an elite level martial artist of almost any style with Grappling to have the body wisdom and feel to be able to deal with this scenario in a much more useful way. I cant see an olympic level Judoka of CZQs size having any issue with this position and this partner for instance, even though they will never encounter it in their art.

So, with that context and with how ill equiped he seemed to be against this simple control, both in terms of body power and tactical approach, what is the attraction to Chen Style tai chi for people who are looking for fighting, or even grappling skills?

Again ... not to be dickish, its an honest question.


It's the "oldest" and therefore must be the best!

All sarcasm aside, I think we must remember that training to be effective is ultimately up to the individual, and if you can't take the time to explore your limitations and fill-in those gaps, spend time always blaming the style or system or teachers, then what's the point of really training a martial art.

This is not directed at you Middleway, but I'll never understand why some people find some excuse to blame the concept of style or system in the face of their own shortcomings and ineptitude. If people want to get better at fight, then go to people who are good at fighting. If you seek how to understand your style or system in a certain form of combat and it's just not there, figure it out. Why is that so hard?
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:40 pm

Ken Gullette escapes from the same clinch.

From "Using Internal Principles in Grappling -- How to Escape a Clinch," http://internalarts.typepad.com/ken_gul ... linch.html:
Ken Gullette on September 14, 2018 wrote:Can Tai Chi, Xingyi or Bagua be used against a grappler?

A lot of macho types say no, but that's because they do not understand the internal martial arts.

Tai Chi has been slandered, maligned and unfairly criticized during the past year or two because a couple of people who claimed to be Tai Chi "masters" (they are not masters) had the stupidity to take on a trained MMA fighter and they lost. Badly.

I had a Wing Chun guy come into my school once and he wanted to spar full-contact. I told him we didn't do that, but we would gladly spar with him and do light contact. We hit him in the face anytime we wanted. My top student and I both tried him out. It was pitiful, but I did not judge Wing Chun based on this guy.

The internal arts have principles and body mechanics that work if you follow them, just like any art. Sometimes, you simply have to fight. That includes punching. But sometimes, you use body mechanics to take advantage of your opponent's force or to break his structure.

This past Wednesday night at practice, three students -- Justin Snow, Colin Frye and Chris Andrews -- worked with me as I demonstrated how to escape from a clinch. We had a good time playing with this.

Justin and Chris are both around 300 pounds. They are strong guys, around 30 years old. They have experience fighting. Real fighting.

I am 65 with one lung, heart issues, and I lost a lot of muscle mass when I got sick 9 years ago.

They still can't hold me in a clinch if I use internal principles. And I can't hold them, either.

We had fun playing with this. Enjoy the video and I hope you learn from it. And remember, 850 video lessons and pdf downloads are available 24/7 on my membership website at http://www.internalfightingarts.com. Check it out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aGEWyZz0k
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:08 pm

I would suggest go back and look at the video the clinch being demoed is not the same clinch that was applied to the chen teacher.

In the clip with the chen teacher the one using the clinch was not applying a downward Force that he could borrow or slip out of.

a better demo would include somebody who knows how to clinch and why it's used.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:35 pm

windwalker wrote:I would suggest go back and look at the video the clinch being demoed is not the same clinch that was applied to the chen teacher.

In the clip with the chen teacher the one using the clinch was not applying a downward Force that he could borrow or slip out of.

a better demo would include somebody who knows how to clinch and why it's used.

You might follow your own suggestion. Because, it is the same clinch.

@ 1:05 Miller (the one clinching Chen) explains, "Secondly, I draw him down which further breaks his shoulders from his hip alignment and puts him in a position to be struck by knees:"
marvin8 wrote:From William Miller's facebook page, William shows an escape from the same "proper" clinch.

William Miller
September 8 at 6:54 PM:

https://www.facebook.com/william.miller ... 07570/?t=8
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:14 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2_HnOl ... e=youtu.be

look at the alignment of each forearms. look at the body line for each..

With the chen teacher the force is being directed towards his center by a slight twisting.
Even if the demo person does not note it...The teacher seems to want to break the others elbows which is illegal but an option provided
one has the understanding and ability to do it. The demo looks bad because while the other can apply full force, the teacher can not in doing what
must seem a natural movement to him since he continues to try to use it..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aGEWyZz0k

In this clip its a simple downward force.

Another thing to note, its a little different with another teacher applying something to some one rather then
their student. The Chen teacher has skill and uses it against his own students in other clips quite convincingly .

It would be interesting to see the same teacher applying his clince to the other teacher demoing his escapes.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:21 pm

Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby jaime_g on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:59 pm

You might follow your own suggestion. Because, it is the same clinch.


No, it's not. Completely different clinchs. In fact, calling "that" a clinch would be extremely generous, neither Gullette nor his partner were doing anything remotely similar to a proper clinch
Last edited by jaime_g on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:34 pm

jaime_g wrote:
You might follow your own suggestion. Because, it is the same clinch.


No, it's not. Completely different clinchs. In fact, calling "that" a clinch would be extremely generous, neither Gullette nor his partner were doing anything remotely similar to a proper clinch



exactly,,,, ;)
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