CZQ vs The Clench

[GrahamB]

Bao - I'm not a fan of "let's not get in that situation in the first place" as a defence strategy You might as well just stay in bed all day - that's the safest strategy!

Put yourself in bad places and try and work out how to get out. Thai Clinch is a really easy position to end up in, and you need to know what to do about it.

Don't forget that the guy could be kneeing the shit out of him all the time he's in that clinch.

This escape also looks like bullshit, but at least he's thinking about the knees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8LqiguatHw

[Bao]

As I already said Graham, believe it or not, but I have practiced Thai Boxing. I know what it means to get into a Thai clinch.

What I mean is that you should always change and adapt to movement regardless what someone does and not wait until you actually know what someone does and try to figure out then what to do. If you react fast when someone is trying to grab you or drag you down, or preferably even before he already has some kind of grab, makes a great difference from reacting first when you are already in the worst possible position. Getting out of this worst possible scenario is what CZQ trying to show, something that is too hard for him to handle.

It is certainly likely to get into this kind of position, but a match is still not only about just exactly this position and how to get out of it. And not even a Thai Clinch is always a perfect clinch and it can be hard to get the perfect leverage when you try to do it on someone who is constantly jumping around, trying to kick and knee at you. So I can't see anything wrong about starting from a less perfect clinch or from the moment as someone tries to wrap his arms against your neck. Start from a realistic position and then you can make it gradually harder. But if you want to go all in right from start like CZQ, sure, that's a way to learn to become more humble...

This escape also looks like bullshit, but at least he's thinking about the knees:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8LqiguatHw

That neck grab is what looks like BS and frankly, I can garantee you that you would find very easy to defend yourself from those knees.

Compare the leverage with the CZQ, the big guy drags him very close, presses his head down and against him. I would definitely like to see the big guy do the same thing with "master wong".

[GrahamB]

"Getting out of this worst possible scenario is what CZQ trying to show, something that is too hard for him to handle. "

But it's not. There are plenty of ways to get out of that situation, just none that he's actually showing.

[Bao]

There are plenty of ways to get out of that situation, just none that he's actually showing.

True.

[origami_itto]

First, where is this from? Where is the text quoted from? It's not in the video description... Posted on a forum somewhere?

William posted it to a public Facebook group I'm in -chen shi taijiquan with that introductory text.

[windwalker]

What is notable is that for an art that is supposed to give one the advantage to overcome physical attributes
it was not demonstrated by one who is a leading exponent of it representing his family art in this exchange.

A learning experience for the teacher, a question for those expecting to see a different outcome as to why.

The teacher shows ed good attitude towards pushing his own limits while at the same time leaving unanswered as to why
skill sets that taiji is noted for were not used.

[Trick]

If it’s the same Chen Ziqiang I found on the Chinese tubes, this seem to be the free sparring practice he favors to do always starting very close as clinching with opponent, and that is the only distance they are to do. As I understand in the OP vid he’s facing an quite bigger and grappling experienced opponent. Against such an opponent and under the “rule set” of just staying in clinching range and try to throw, no matter how long time one has practiced Thai-Boxing or TJQ one will have quite an hard time and probably always be the one that has to try to fend off. Of course the Taiji guy know this but to be really sure he gotta test it ? Guys of his own size and even other bigger guys he seem to have no problem to handle, but maybe they are not wrestlers or similar

[Bao]

William posted it to a public Facebook group I'm in -chen shi taijiquan with that introductory text.

Found that it's an open group, anyone can read and follow the discussion there.

[Steve James]

Second - here is the danger of trying to do a grappling technique that's not based on leverage against somebody who significantly outweighs you. And pain compliance only works if they comply!

Agree. Imo, if you have to struggle, it's not going to work against someone stronger.

I think the comments noting that the clinch is not the worry, it's the knees. It's not like a clinch in boxing where the goal is to avoid hand strikes. Fwiw, I liked the 3 technique shown in the clinch-counter video. I'd just point out that all involved moving in as opposed to trying to get away.

Graham, would you try a take down if caught in that position?

[GrahamB]

Steve - I think it depends on the context of when it happened. If it was in a BJJ class I would definitely try a takedown (there are lots of examples on YouTube) because there is no risk of being kneed or punched, but if it was in 'da street' my first thought would be to get out of there quick using one of those 'neck wrestling' techniques previously shown to create space, because you are only seconds away from having a very bad day. My preference is always a forearm against the throat if I can get it. But once out of danger I wouldn't want to break the distance completely (then you might get hit) so I'd probably try and keep a clinch going on and work for a takedown from there, from a position that a Thai Boxer wouldn't be so familiar with.

I think it's worth noting that there are different 'levels' to the Thai clinch. A lot of people you YouTube are showing defences of it against the back of your neck (like Mr Wong) - which is easier to break - I get the feeling the proper version is in deep with the grip higher up your head, so it really breaks your posture down. That looks much worse.

[GrahamB]

This is a nice bit of analysis of the Thai Clinch:

https://www.facebook.com/LawrenceKenshi ... 204/?t=310

"Several historic bouts between styles took place in the 80s. This bout is of Dieselnoi, the greatest knee specialist of all time, facing John Moncayo, a world champion kickboxer. In this breakdown, we witness why the plum became synonymous with "The Thai Clinch.""

[Steve James]

Yes, of course, it always depends on the context. I guess I was asking about the context of the op. I think the smaller guy is in a bad position that'd he'd have to address immediately in order to escape or counter. The more and longer he struggles, the less likely it'll work (imo).

[GrahamB]

Yes, of course, it always depends on the context. I guess I was asking about the context of the op. I think the smaller guy is in a bad position that'd he'd have to address immediately in order to escape or counter. The more and longer he struggles, the less likely it'll work (imo).

ha - if the guy was that much bigger than me I'd drop to the floor and bite his ankles until he pleaded for mercy

[Steve James]

That video came from the early days when kickboxers had little experience with Muay Thai techniques. Benny Urquidez was one of the first. He's a good example of using posture and punching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHk_y_y9wsM

[marvin8]

From William Miller's facebook page, William shows an escape from the same "proper" clinch.

William Miller
September 8 at 6:54 PM:

https://www.facebook.com/william.miller.399826/videos/10156478857007570/?t=8

From Comments:

Marin Spivack (Moling) Interesting video. I would wonder how this approach is going to play out if the opponent (clincher) is significantly strong, bigger, heavier etc. In a sense, it appears as though you are able to move and basically pull your neck back into alignment because of (enough) strength. But what happens if the other guy's strength is dominant? Being as you are I don't know how often you have to face that weight/size difference. Being as I am I kind of remember.

Of course I might use some different approach, but maybe you were classifying those are "advanced", I don't know. This vid is good though. I am not making a critique either, just thinking.

William Miller Marin Spivack the question is good and it may appear this way, but I'm pulling my hips forward and getting under the force so to speak. I cant get my neck straight and yes wouldn't be unable to pull my head up.

I lower my center and then drive my hips forward towards my opponent. Many times it will uproot them as your coming up.

Even a smaller guy can stop your head from getting back in alignment so timing and getting hips in position is of most importance.

Yes there are different approaches. Context of sport or no gloves adds another mix to this as well.

This is a rather standard and even basic method.