CZQ vs The Clench

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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:49 pm

It's pretty obvious that CZQ was outclassed in this case. Chances are he's had little experience dealing with a proper neck clinch applied by someone who doesn't "play nice" and take a dive out of respect and courtesy as commonly seen in TMA demos. While I personally wouldn't do what Mr. Miller had done to a teacher at a public seminar, I still think what happened that day was a good reality check for Chen.

Also, kudos to him for willing to mix it up with seminar goers and getting down and dirty. Big-names in the Chen clan from the previous generation, like CXW, would never be caught dead putting themselves in that position and risk losing face.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Ya never know what you don't know or can't do until you find out and can't do it. I'll bet he goes home and works on a solution to the problem.

I remember when Steven Seagal said he could escape from Gene LeBell's (no even completely) rear naked choke. It's no shame; not many people could.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:11 pm

It's pretty obvious that CZQ was outclassed in this case. Chances are he's had little experience dealing with a proper neck clinch applied by someone who doesn't "play nice" and take a dive out of respect and courtesy as commonly seen in TMA demos. While I personally wouldn't do what Mr. Miller had done to a teacher at a public seminar, I still think what happened that day was a good reality check for Chen.


I look at it a little differently.

Being a rep of a family style actually coming from his family.
Win lose or draw...how he does it is very important.

people can understand a loss to a superior opponent.

What is not clear is why with all the training and experience his reactions were not that much different from someone untrained.
In fact his training may have been the problem preventing what might be called a natural reaction...

He did not use the often mentioned and demoed "fa-jin" nor any other type of "jin" penetrating energy.
Can anyone point to some signature Chen style movement?

even in winning its not the winning that is noted

He was good at free fighting. One day he was challenged by a strong martial artist. When the challenger grasped his wrist and would not let him escape, Yang, Ban-hou used his jin to bounce the challenger away and defeat him. He was so proud that he went home and told his father. Instead of praise, his father laughed at him because his sleeve was torn. https://legacy.ymaa.com/articles/histor ... -taijiquan


Many compare push hands to stand up grappling,, if so one would have thought that being more sensitive "not shown" would be a benefit under pressure.
looks like its a training issue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNXnxCpjUNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE

similar reactions from those using what
is said to be the same style.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby jaime_g on Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:54 pm

windwalker wrote:I look at it a little differently.

Being a rep of a family style actually coming from his family.
Win lose or draw...how he does it is very important.

people can understand a loss to a superior opponent.

What is not clear is why with all the training and experience his reactions were not that much different from someone untrained.
In fact his training may have been the problem preventing what might be called a natural reaction...

He did not use the often mentioned and demoed "fa-jin" nor any other type of "jin" penetrating energy.
Can anyone point to some signature Chen style movement?

even in winning its not the winning that is noted


I agree. Losing doesnt matter, everyone loses doing sparring. Ask any bjj black belt, no one can even remember how many hundreds of times have had to tap during rolling. However, your training should be there, obvious to anyone watching, CZQ performance was just terrible

I believe in keeping things nice and not escalating. Miller was doing a fair clinch, beating his joints or trying to fa-jin him would be silly. If you really want to show how your fajin can break a clinch, do it while the other guy is throwing knees at you or whiplashing your neck. That'd fair.

Imo the very first line of defence should have been his taiji body, suspending the head should be enough to prevent or weaken a clinch to the degree your posture is no longer so compromised.
Last edited by jaime_g on Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Dmitri on Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:12 pm

Will (Miller) is extremely well skilled in Chen taiji, a true enthusiast of the art, and he is also freakishly strong :) -- so that clip it's not really a surprise. We've played PH for a couple years back in the day (on Sundays), so I know what I'm talking about first-hand.

So to be honest, that was probably not your average "Thai clinch" -- it was likely a highly-skilled "taiji hold" (for lack of a better term) in the shape of a Thai clinch. ;) Which would be only possible to deal with if you have a significantly higher body skill. CZQ would probably do a lot better against an actual Thai fighter (who isn't allowed to strike, that is...)

BTW Will is also the only Chen stylist I know who can do "full sparring" (striking in particular) that actually looks and feels exactly like Chen taijiquan. That includes quite a few people, well-known or otherwise. (In person or on video, for that matter.)

Just FYI.

P. S. Man the world's getting smaller and smaller... :D 8-)
Last edited by Dmitri on Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:46 am

I also feel compelled to say that the best Chen stylists I've seen are actually the ones from outside the village lineages -- and unassociated with the 4 big-names. ;)
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:11 am

So two highly(equally?)skilled Chen Taijiquan exponents try it out and the bigger/stronger of them get the upper hand, is probably the expected outcome, even by the two “combatants”
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:19 am

C.J.W. wrote:I also feel compelled to say that the best Chen stylists I've seen are actually the ones from outside the village lineages -- and unassociated with the 4 big-names. ;)

I’m not feel “attacked” or something but must ask , best in what ?.....I can understand as village sounds as village as in somewhat isolated they not had that broader opportunity to compare skills with others as the Beijingers had.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:44 am

Trick wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:I also feel compelled to say that the best Chen stylists I've seen are actually the ones from outside the village lineages -- and unassociated with the 4 big-names. ;)

I’m not feel “attacked” or something but must ask , best in what ?.....I can understand as village sounds as village as in somewhat isolated they not had that broader opportunity to compare skills with others as the Beijingers had.


The group that this was posted in is a Chen Zhaokui (and Chen Yu) group that believe that in the village you get to practice forms and wrestling and that the original, good, useful stuff is to be found outside the Village as in Beijing.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:28 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:I also feel compelled to say that the best Chen stylists I've seen are actually the ones from outside the village lineages -- and unassociated with the 4 big-names. ;)

I’m not feel “attacked” or something but must ask , best in what ?.....I can understand as village sounds as village as in somewhat isolated they not had that broader opportunity to compare skills with others as the Beijingers had.


The group that this was posted in is a Chen Zhaokui (and Chen Yu) group that believe that in the village you get to practice forms and wrestling and that the original, good, useful stuff is to be found outside the Village as in Beijing.

I actually believe it could be like that. In Beijing I had the chance to meet a teacher of the Chen Zhaokui linage who showed “things” that quite much impressed me. Here in my “new hometown” most of the Taiji so far I’ve seen is the village Chen Taiji, most have very nice form, but something tells me their not at the level as the teacher I met in Beijing. But some of them could be, but I’m not the guy that comes up and ask for a show.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby wiesiek on Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:41 am

..."I remember when Steven Seagal said he could escape from Gene LeBell's (no even completely) rear naked choke. It's no shame; not many people could..."

hehe,
I described such situation on another occasion here , - I bet one day , that I can do it from fully set , I even allowed to be bend backwards...
My adversary was former handball player, quite strong in the hands, dough
so
I was awaken from the ground few second later :)
To sum it up - if you allow to fully set serious technique - you`re in 99% dead.
However
"Clench" isn`t "deadly" technique by any means,
it is 1st step before some serious damage can be done, escaping/switching to the better position is , well, basic...
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby wiesiek on Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:50 am

considering, that BOTH has skilz, -
bigger and stronger take price, nothing extraordinary,
but
Teacher should show something what may eventually work...
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby dspyrido on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:07 pm

What happened to czq? He didn't have a good method to get out. Simple. Why? Idk maybe he is just not used to someone that big grabbing his head. I've met many TC guys who fall into this category.

But I'll applaud him for testing out with a much bigger guy because thats the only way to learn.

Now MT and wrestling do have responses to this but they also fall into their own rules and limits.

I've asked this same question and have tested it myself against many. 2 cma instructors who who were both easily 30-40kg lighter and about 20+ years older than me had great responses.

1. Shuai jiow: he grabbed one elbow crook (his right on my left) using his palm on the top and weighted into it to create a gap in the arms. Then he snaked his forearm into my neck/chin and had grabbed my lat. (on my left side). With pressure on my jaw and his elbow point on my chest it was easy to stretch my arms out & get out.
2. Chinna/internal guy: He did it even better. He slid an arm in, stepped across & wrapped his arm over mine. This turned an escape into a counter reversing the lock on me. It was effortless.

I welcome anyone to try version 1. It should self explanatory. Version 2 is too compex to explain properly.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:20 pm

dspyrido wrote:What happened to czq? He didn't have a good method to get out. Simple. Why? Idk maybe he is just not used to someone that big grabbing his head. I've met many TC guys who fall into this category.

.


Agreed. He was outclassed in terms of both size and grappling experience.

CZQ is no doubt good at Taiji's moving step PH-type of standup grappling. But when pulled outside of his comfort zone by someone using Judo sacrifice throws and MT neck clinchs, his existing skillset and experience were obviously not up to the task.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby middleway on Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:48 am

The question that comes to my head is this ... and i really dont mean this to be dickish..

CZQ is often touted as the apex of the 'fighters' from Chen Village. He has had more exposure to the art at its source than most people he will encounter, certainly more experience of Taiji than the clincher here and i would wager MANY more hours of total Martial Arts training. In fact i would wager he probably has more hours 'training martial arts' than most professional MMA fighters, Olympian Judoka or BJJ black belts.

I would expect an elite level martial artist of almost any style with Grappling to have the body wisdom and feel to be able to deal with this scenario in a much more useful way. I cant see an olympic level Judoka of CZQs size having any issue with this position and this partner for instance, even though they will never encounter it in their art.

So, with that context and with how ill equiped he seemed to be against this simple control, both in terms of body power and tactical approach, what is the attraction to Chen Style tai chi for people who are looking for fighting, or even grappling skills?

Again ... not to be dickish, its an honest question.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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