CZQ vs The Clench

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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:40 pm

windwalker wrote:I would suggest go back and look at the video the clinch being demoed is not the same clinch that was applied to the chen teacher.

In the clip with the chen teacher the one using the clinch was not applying a downward Force that he could borrow or slip out of.

jaime_g wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You might follow your own suggestion. Because, it is the same clinch.


No, it's not. Completely different clinchs. In fact, calling "that" a clinch would be extremely generous, neither Gullette nor his partner were doing anything remotely similar to a proper clinch

The following videos are the same in that they all show "clinches" with head pulling down at certain points. The first two have the same clincher, William Miller, pulling down on the head.

Head pulling down at: before the video starts, :03, :16, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2_HnOlhaWE


William Miller
September 8 at 6:54 PM

William Miller states in the video, "Secondly, I draw him down,” while pulling the head down:
https://www.facebook.com/william.miller.399826/videos/10156478857007570/?t=8


Ken Gullette on September 14, 2018 wrote:Can Tai Chi, Xingyi or Bagua be used against a grappler?

A lot of macho types say no, but that's because they do not understand the internal martial arts. . . .

But sometimes, you use body mechanics to take advantage of your opponent's force or to break his structure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aGEWyZz0k

How do you see the above 3 videos, "Completely different clinchs?"
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby jaime_g on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:07 pm

Because they are different. Different body mechanics, different results. A thai clinch, a clueless neck grab commiting yourself (Gullette's video) , and a "taiji hold" (nice one from Dmitri), use different mechanics.

it's the kind of thing that we can discuss forever but only lasts 5 seconds to demonstrate hands-on
Last edited by jaime_g on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:24 pm

jaime_g wrote:Because they are different. Different body mechanics, different results

cant say much more, it's the kind of thing that we can discuss forever but only lasts 5 seconds to demonstrate hands-on

. . . or you can just timestamp in the videos (as I did) where you see the different body mechanics. We have the videos, actions and statements of the participants. You can start with comparing the two pictures of clinches, before the videos are played. I don't see a significant difference in "body mechanics" and the heads are pulled down in both videos.

The main point windwalker was arguing and what Ken Gullette was emphasizing is listen to and use the clincher's downward force to escape the clinch. Other discussions may not be as relevant.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:44 pm

Is Ken Guilettes Clinch escape demonstration made in defence of Chen Taiji because CZQ failed try? Is Mr Guilettes Chen Taiji the village variant?
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Trick wrote:Is Ken Guilettes Clinch escape demonstration made in defence of Chen Taiji because CZQ failed try?

May be a good guess since Ken's video came out a week after CZQ's.
Ken Gullette on September 14, 2018 wrote:They still can't hold me in a clinch if I use internal principles. And I can't hold them, either.

We had fun playing with this. Enjoy the video and I hope you learn from it.


Trick wrote:Is Mr Guilettes Chen Taiji the village variant?

Excerpt from "Ken Gullette's Story," https://www.internalfightingarts.com/pa ... n-gullette:
In 1998, he met Jim and Angela Criscimagna, students of Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang (now disciples). In one hour of training with Jim and Angela, he saw a higher quality of tai chi, and he began studying Chen family tai chi with Jim and Angela.

Through Jim and Angela, Ken met and learned from Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang and Master Ren Guangyi, one of Chen Xiaowang's senior students.

In the decade that followed, Ken also became a student of Mark Wasson, a disciple of Chen Xiaowang. During these years he also met and learned from Grandmaster Chen Xiaoxing and Master Chen Bing. In 2006, Ken and Nancy sponsored Chen Xiaoxing's visa to the U.S. The master stayed in their home in Bettendorf, Iowa, for a week.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:48 am

Thanks marvin8
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:53 am

It seem that most people see the martial art of TJQ as some sort of in the ring MA, that the style must prove itself in such environment. Some say that the masters in the past over and over went out(dueling) to prove that their MA was the real deal, then one only read about three or four stories of Yang Luchan and his son doing so .....I’m still convinced TJQ as an martial art is not to be taken as an dueling MA. It depends on the surprise element where an aggressor don’t know he’s up against someone with some skill, and in such an situation if a Taiji guy is being grabbed or taken an hold on he’s far away from any Taiji skill and probably has not practiced enough or right....Those Taiji guys that where/are good att dueling/challenge fights might have gotten that fight environment skill from other methods other than “traditionally” Taijiquan practice methods
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:17 am

Trick wrote:It seem that most people see the martial art of TJQ as some sort of in the ring MA, that the style must prove itself in such environment. Some say that the masters in the past over and over went out(dueling) to prove that their MA was the real deal, then one only read about three or four stories of Yang Luchan and his son doing so .....I’m still convinced TJQ as an martial art is not to be taken as an dueling MA.

You might want to understand the history a little before coming to a conclusion.

It is during this time Shuaijiao reached its zenith, as Manchurian, Mongolian, and Han styles merged into a much larger, more detailed skill. The Manchu emperor has his own wrestling team of around 438 people, divided into two camps.

Throughout the year the camps competed with each other, had frequent exhibitions, traveled with emperor during hunts, and most importantly, faced off against the Mongolian king’s wrestlers in annual contest. Membership and promotion in the team depended entirely on one’s performance in all these events.

The 438 of professional wrestlers at Shan Pu Ying (善扑营) belong to but one of the three capitol city garrisons. The one where Yang Luchan, Liu Zhijun, and Song Mailun taught at – Shen Ji Ying, had over 2,000 instructors/weapons experts who led the training of 30,000 strong palace guards.

That plus the battle-hardened agents of Big Ten security companies (Biaoju), members of Big Six martial arts of the north, and all the people who flock to the city to make a name for themselves, Beijing during Qing Dynasty represented the peak of development and growth of traditional martial art.

Image
https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif



It depends on the surprise element where an aggressor don’t know he’s up against someone with some skill, and in such an situation if a Taiji guy is being grabbed or taken an hold on he’s far away from any Taiji skill and probably has not practiced enough or right....Those Taiji guys that where/are good att dueling/challenge fights might have gotten that fight environment skill from other methods other than “traditionally” Taijiquan practice methods


Or what are called traditionally methods, are not the same methods used in the past, nor are they tested in the same way today...ie the contest of their time...
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:22 am

Trick wrote:It seem that most people see the martial art of TJQ as some sort of in the ring MA, that the style must prove itself in such environment. Some say that the masters in the past over and over went out(dueling) to prove that their MA was the real deal, then one only read about three or four stories of Yang Luchan and his son doing so .....I’m still convinced TJQ as an martial art is not to be taken as an dueling MA. It depends on the surprise element where an aggressor don’t know he’s up against someone with some skill, and in such an situation if a Taiji guy is being grabbed or taken an hold on he’s far away from any Taiji skill and probably has not practiced enough or right....Those Taiji guys that where/are good att dueling/challenge fights might have gotten that fight environment skill from other methods other than “traditionally” Taijiquan practice methods

If see Taijiquan as not being an dueling martial art, and from its practice method can gain an higher all around sense of awareness manifesting in not only being able to read an eventual aggressor’s movements and mentality upon contact range but on a much wider range , a situation might not get to be an situation.....Taijiquan the anti fight martial art,...Boring, non cool and out in the blue softy talk, yeah, but why not. 8-) 8-)
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby middleway on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:35 am


This is not directed at you Middleway, but I'll never understand why some people find some excuse to blame the concept of style or system in the face of their own shortcomings and ineptitude. If people want to get better at fight, then go to people who are good at fighting. If you seek how to understand your style or system in a certain form of combat and it's just not there, figure it out. Why is that so hard?


Personal responsibility is all we really have so I agree with you there.

I think the problem I have with that outlook is that in most other forms of skill we largely accept that there are better or worse systems to use.

Graham is right it's not about style per say. But i always maintain it is about something far more important ... effective or ineffective training.

I don't agree with the 'it's all the individual' outlook and never have. It IS the individual outlook, but it is also the method of training to reliably produce outcomes.

Train muay Thai for 5 years and you will be a pretty good striker, train jujitsu for 5 years and you will be a pretty good grappler. We don't need to collapse to the individual level for these methods. Their training methodologies are reliable.

To highlight my point, As I have said before, when most people jump off a high building they die. Some survive however. In the face of this, the advice about falling from high places shouldn't be 'it's depend on the individual'... we can make a broad statement thst it isnt good to do it.

So it should be with training in systems of combat.

For the record I absolutely believe that some methodologies in the internal traditions are effective at building combat skills. I just wonder if some methods lack or have lost a defined goal unlike some of the other methods out there.

Regardless thanks for the answers.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:40 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:It seem that most people see the martial art of TJQ as some sort of in the ring MA, that the style must prove itself in such environment. Some say that the masters in the past over and over went out(dueling) to prove that their MA was the real deal, then one only read about three or four stories of Yang Luchan and his son doing so .....I’m still convinced TJQ as an martial art is not to be taken as an dueling MA.

You might want to understand the history a little before coming to a conclusion.

It is during this time Shuaijiao reached its zenith, as Manchurian, Mongolian, and Han styles merged into a much larger, more detailed skill. The Manchu emperor has his own wrestling team of around 438 people, divided into two camps.

Throughout the year the camps competed with each other, had frequent exhibitions, traveled with emperor during hunts, and most importantly, faced off against the Mongolian king’s wrestlers in annual contest. Membership and promotion in the team depended entirely on one’s performance in all these events.

The 438 of professional wrestlers at Shan Pu Ying (善扑营) belong to but one of the three capitol city garrisons. The one where Yang Luchan, Liu Zhijun, and Song Mailun taught at – Shen Ji Ying, had over 2,000 instructors/weapons experts who led the training of 30,000 strong palace guards.

That plus the battle-hardened agents of Big Ten security companies (Biaoju), members of Big Six martial arts of the north, and all the people who flock to the city to make a name for themselves, Beijing during Qing Dynasty represented the peak of development and growth of traditional martial art.

Image
https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif



It depends on the surprise element where an aggressor don’t know he’s up against someone with some skill, and in such an situation if a Taiji guy is being grabbed or taken an hold on he’s far away from any Taiji skill and probably has not practiced enough or right....Those Taiji guys that where/are good att dueling/challenge fights might have gotten that fight environment skill from other methods other than “traditionally” Taijiquan practice methods


Or what are called traditionally methods, are not the same methods used in the past, nor are they tested in the same way today...ie the contest of their time...

That’s why I wrote “stories of Yang Luchan and his son” YLC practiced other MA’s prior his time in Chen village, by so he might have been dueling and gaining experience in that field prior time spent in the village. The MA learned in the village might have been different maybe quite different but interesting enough for him to want it....Now there might be stories around of the past Chen villager taking on challenges on on an regular basis so my theory might be totally wrong, but I’ve not come across such stories, neither such stories(of real dueling fights) by the generation after Yang Banhou...
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:00 am

Trick wrote:That’s why I wrote “stories of Yang Luchan and his son” YLC practiced other MA’s prior his time in Chen village, by so he might have been dueling and gaining experience in that field prior time spent in the village. The MA learned in the village might have been different maybe quite different but interesting enough for him to want it....Now there might be stories around of the past Chen villager taking on challenges on on an regular basis so my theory might be totally wrong, but I’ve not come across such stories, neither such stories(of real dueling fights) by the generation after Yang Banhou...


We seem to be talking about different things. Regarding the chens...their history contains a lot of stories if one looks or asks from the practitioner of the style.

What all do not have is modern exponents using what can be recognize by signature movements of the style in question.
This can said of most if not all CMA styles btw....having said this they are evolving...

Went through this with what is called hop gar...all that I would meet could know, feel and see
that what was being used was quite different and came from the training that produced it...
there was no other way.

In this case as with the clench while the teacher might be quite skilled, the question is
is it reflective of the the style or his own training in gen....so far not many chen people
have commented either way or maybe I missed them...He did seem to be trying to break the elbow
joint repeatedly but maybe his timing was a little off in trying not to injure the training partner
who was able to use full power just to contain and control him, done with all the advantages of skill, size,
knowledge of the style ect..

not easy for the teacher to overcome kudos to him for trying and allowing it to be filmed..
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:09 am

How different past masters from those of today

Beijing Physical Culture Institute was the first time martial art was taught to the public outside of the traditional private master-disciple system. Many of the first generation instructors were great masters, they were responsible, as a necessity for teaching large classes, systematizing, formalizing, and in many cases creating (ex. Bagua Jian) many of the empty hand and weapons routines in traditional martial art. So Xu knew everyone.

Yuan Liang had one pre-condition, that he would fight each candidate, if he loses, he will be the disciple with no questions asked. The first few candidates, afraid to harm the most powerful man in Beijing, held back and ‘lost’. Yuan was deeply unsatisfied. He demanded Xue Yusheng produce someone better.

Wang Maozhai

It is at this point that Xue Yusheng thought of Wang Maozhai. Also a senior disciple of Quan You, Wang was not much involved in the business martial art. Throughout his life he operated a profitable building supply company called Tong Sheng Fu (同盛福) in the center of the city (Don Dan district).

He didn’t need to teach, and worry about any politics associated with it. As predicted, Wang Maozhai had no reservations when he met Yuan Liang, and beat Yuan Liang as he would with anyone else he met.

Of course he did not injury Yuan Liang, but gave Yuan Liang a very clear idea of his skill. Yuan Liang, thoroughly impressed, immediately knelled down.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:33 am

Training method is training method. It seems that people usually confuse training method with the supposed or named style an individual practices. So, people ask how one can use the tcc slow form to fight. It's a bit difficult to find someone who fights using it. But, if he doesn't try to use it, people say that he's not practicing his style. If he loses, they'll say it illustrates the style's ineffectiveness. If he wins, they'll say he used something else, or that there's no difference between what he does and any other style.

I agree that one can look at a training method and gauge whether the practitioner is being adequately prepared for an event. That has nothing to do with the clinch escape. Can a tcc practitioner learn how to deal with clinches? Of course. Nothing prevents it except lack of practice, or the belief that one's style is already the best, deadliest style.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby dspyrido on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:10 pm

marvin8 wrote:The main point windwalker was arguing and what Ken Gullette was emphasizing is listen to and use the clincher's downward force to escape the clinch. Other discussions may not be as relevant.


They are different. It's in the elbows. Czq's opponent has pinched them in in an effort to "clinch". Kens mate leaves them slightly open. Almost loose.

Rightly so for kens guy. This clinch done right should feel like the jaw is being crushed or the blood is being cut off.

Done really right and strong taller guy would be jerking them around by the neck alone. I have my doubts kens neck would fair well in that outcome. A younger czq won't enjoy it but he seems to have more muscle in the region and youth on his side.
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