CZQ vs The Clench

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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The main point windwalker was arguing and what Ken Gullette was emphasizing is listen to and use the clincher's downward force to escape the clinch. Other discussions may not be as relevant.


They are different. It's in the elbows. Czq's opponent has pinched them in in an effort to "clinch". Kens mate leaves them slightly open. Almost loose.

Rightly so for kens guy. This clinch done right should feel like the jaw is being crushed or the blood is being cut off.

Done really right and strong taller guy would be jerking them around by the neck alone. I have my doubts kens neck would fair well in that outcome. A younger czq won't enjoy it but he seems to have more muscle in the region and youth on his side.


good eye ;)

also what I noted in first looking at it...also look at the diffrence in the body line used by the clincher used in both demos....in the Czq clip the person is more upright this changes the focal point of the clinch making it harder to get out by dropping...in the other clip the person is leaning over the focal point is some place in the middle of both of them....enabling the teacher to take advantage of this,,,

jaime_g wrote:
Because they are different. Different body mechanics, different results. A thai clinch, a clueless neck grab committing yourself (Gullette's video) , and a "taiji hold" (nice one from Dmitri), use different mechanics.

it's the kind of thing that we can discuss forever but only lasts 5 seconds to demonstrate hands-on


others have noted it too....

This is why sometimes it can be very misleading using students to simulate things that are not used or taught that they
really don't know how to apply...many demos with people posing as boxers are subject to this giving the impression
that one as a lot time dealing with a punch when in fact they really don't. If they'er range and don't understand this
they'll understand it very quickly...


a noted lama hop gar exponent I know, in a conversation told me he has people who are thai boxers come to
his gym so that the people he trains can gain some first hand experience with them.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:33 am

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The main point windwalker was arguing and what Ken Gullette was emphasizing is listen to and use the clincher's downward force to escape the clinch. Other discussions may not be as relevant.


They are different. It's in the elbows. Czq's opponent has pinched them in in an effort to "clinch". Kens mate leaves them slightly open. Almost loose.

Rightly so for kens guy. This clinch done right should feel like the jaw is being crushed or the blood is being cut off.

Done really right and strong taller guy would be jerking them around by the neck alone. I have my doubts kens neck would fair well in that outcome. A younger czq won't enjoy it but he seems to have more muscle in the region and youth on his side.

Thanks for a simple, clear explanation. That's all I was asking for.

My initial reply was in direct response to windwalker's post:
windwalker wrote:I would suggest go back and look at the video the clinch being demoed is not the same clinch that was applied to the chen teacher.

In the clip with the chen teacher the one using the clinch was not applying a downward Force that he could borrow or slip out of.

Again, the clinches are the same in that they are both clinches and there is downward force. As far as pinched elbows, that may be a difference in the clinches. However, I believe when Ken clinched, he pinched the elbows more. (The other guy was overweight which may have caused limited range of motion with his elbows.)

Also, Ken's timing is to wait for the attacker to knee you, block and pull your head down while the opponent's leg is moving down, in the same direction. While pulling the knee back, the attacker may tend to open his arms a bit or relax to help keep his balance. Just trying to observe Ken's method objectively, before making any opinions.

Ken's method would probably not be my first choice, as one could be injured from the first knee. There seems to be safer alternatives, even using tai chi moves.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:46 am

marvin8 wrote:Thanks for a simple, clear explanation. That's all I was asking for.

My initial reply was in direct response to windwalker's post:



I posted this a couple of post back

"look at the alignment of each forearms. look at the body line for each..

With the chen teacher the force is being directed towards his center by a slight twisting.
Even if the demo person does not note it"

a slightly different wording noting the same things.
We can disagree about the downward force,,,,if the other teacher was using only downward force
it makes it a little easier to get out of...

Kens escape violates a couple of principles shown in the other clips by those using it in the ring.
as with anything

use what works against those it works against
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby robert on Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:24 am

Trick wrote:It seem that most people see the martial art of TJQ as some sort of in the ring MA, that the style must prove itself in such environment. Some say that the masters in the past over and over went out(dueling) to prove that their MA was the real deal, then one only read about three or four stories of Yang Luchan and his son doing so .....I’m still convinced TJQ as an martial art is not to be taken as an dueling MA. It depends on the surprise element where an aggressor don’t know he’s up against someone with some skill, and in such an situation if a Taiji guy is being grabbed or taken an hold on he’s far away from any Taiji skill and probably has not practiced enough or right....Those Taiji guys that where/are good att dueling/challenge fights might have gotten that fight environment skill from other methods other than “traditionally” Taijiquan practice methods


I don't know about dueling and challenge fights, but there is a well known story about Chen Fake killing someone in the Red Spear Society. The Red Spear Society was active during the Warlord period (1920s).

"The “Red Spear Club” was an evil religious sect. Its members would utter spells and use magic charms, and by inscribing talismans on their bodies before any battle they believed they would become bullet-proof and impervious to knife thrusts. They would thus charge bare-chested into battle. When their gang had encircled Wen-xien, all but one of the citadel gates had been closed, and the drawbridge was lifted. Chen Fa-ke was standing on the bridge holding a bailagan pole (an extremely resilient tree branches for making spears). Holding the pole without a spearhead he awaited the gang’s attack. One of the “Red Spear Club” leaders rushed in with a spear and stabbed at Chen who instantly repulsed it with his wooden pole. The enemy’s spear was sent flying out of his hands into the air. Chen’s pole immediately followed through and shot forward, piercing the enemy’s torso. Seeing their leader killed, the other gang members fled in a panic. Thus was the town saved.

In 1956 Hong traveled from Jinan to Beijing to study further with Chen. He arrived to find two agents from the new local government questioning Chen about the incident mentioned above, which they treated it as a ‘man-slaughter case’. After he fare-welled the two government agents Chen told Hong that a good deed done for the people had become a troublesome matter. Fortunately, the new government did not bother Chen again, because the “Red Spear Club” was a reactionary group soon to be eradicated by the new government."

https://www.taijigongfa.com/single-post ... Taijiquan-
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:09 am

robert wrote:
Trick wrote:It seem that most people see the martial art of TJQ as some sort of in the ring MA, that the style must prove itself in such environment. Some say that the masters in the past over and over went out(dueling) to prove that their MA was the real deal, then one only read about three or four stories of Yang Luchan and his son doing so .....I’m still convinced TJQ as an martial art is not to be taken as an dueling MA. It depends on the surprise element where an aggressor don’t know he’s up against someone with some skill, and in such an situation if a Taiji guy is being grabbed or taken an hold on he’s far away from any Taiji skill and probably has not practiced enough or right....Those Taiji guys that where/are good att dueling/challenge fights might have gotten that fight environment skill from other methods other than “traditionally” Taijiquan practice methods


I don't know about dueling and challenge fights, but there is a well known story about Chen Fake killing someone in the Red Spear Society. The Red Spear Society was active during the Warlord period (1920s).

"The “Red Spear Club” was an evil religious sect. Its members would utter spells and use magic charms, and by inscribing talismans on their bodies before any battle they believed they would become bullet-proof and impervious to knife thrusts. They would thus charge bare-chested into battle. When their gang had encircled Wen-xien, all but one of the citadel gates had been closed, and the drawbridge was lifted. Chen Fa-ke was standing on the bridge holding a bailagan pole (an extremely resilient tree branches for making spears). Holding the pole without a spearhead he awaited the gang’s attack. One of the “Red Spear Club” leaders rushed in with a spear and stabbed at Chen who instantly repulsed it with his wooden pole. The enemy’s spear was sent flying out of his hands into the air. Chen’s pole immediately followed through and shot forward, piercing the enemy’s torso. Seeing their leader killed, the other gang members fled in a panic. Thus was the town saved.



https://www.taijigongfa.com/single-post ... Taijiquan-

Post och inrikes tidningar Thanks for that Chen Fake link. All these kind of stories sound fascinating and great, and they are. Here we have the master standing up against the big bad bullies and that is fascinating and great not many people have courage to do so. But the bullies as highly trained martial artists? this could be doubted, for example punching against someone sitting down I doubt a highly trained self confident martial artist would adhere to, more the way of an bully.....Then we have groups with names as “Red Spear Society”, “Big Sword Society”. By their names one might think of groups of highly trained martial artists, even professionally soldiers. Maybe one or two at leader level where but the “storm troupers”probably ordinary peasants who’s only hope where in magic and luck with the spear or sword......For other references about highly doubting the martial quality of the challengers in these stories of the past, if I’m not misremembering masters such as Zhao Daoxin has written some about it. And also partitioners stories about how many if not most contestants at the Nanjing tournaments had no clue how to hand to hand fight.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:10 am

Oops forget about the four first words there :)
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby spekkioxlv on Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:51 am

The clinch can be a very dynamic position, dealing with it requires alot of feel. There's alot of variation too... are the elbows tight? hands held high on the head, or on the neck. But, the key points to focus on are... making sure you don't get pulled down so you are leaning forward, and making sure to control the elbows in some way.

Clinch counter - counters


Anderson Silva Clinch and elbow breakdown.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby cloudz on Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:53 am

I was shown a very tai chi style escape by Nick Osipzcak that I think worked well enough - nothing is fullproof really.. It combined 'posturing up' (correct posture - getting the hips in) retreating footwork and fast as possible rotations of the torso to hit the grips/neck ties repeatedly with both the shoulders. So a kind of Kao methodology really.

Also to follow up this body movement can be morphed into striking method with fists in a hooking style at an opportune time.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby GrahamB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:01 am

The Anderson Silva fight I remember the most is the one where he won the UFC title for the first time - he obliterated his opponent using the MT clinch. I think it was against Rich Franklin.

Hang on I'll go and look for it....

It's at 3.50 in this, but it's just a highlight and doesn't convey the full horror of getting kneed repeatedly that ran up to the knockout:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnGrEUZd33g

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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Dmitri on Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:35 pm

Griffin knockout (at around 6:00 above) has always been my top favorite. Silva's synapses are firing on a totally different frequency compared to regular humans...
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:17 pm

Dmitri wrote:Griffin knockout (at around 6:00 above) has always been my top favorite. Silva's synapses are firing on a totally different frequency compared to regular humans...

At 6:02, it appears Silva does a superman punch moving backwards with right foot off the ground. I guess the speed of the punch plus Griffin's forward momentum caused the knockout.
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby GrahamB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:30 pm

Repulse Monkey :)

Anytime you hit somebody as they move forward the impact is much worse. (Perhaps the true meaning of 'use their strength against them'!)
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:22 pm

GrahamB wrote:Repulse Monkey :)

Anytime you hit somebody as they move forward the impact is much worse. (Perhaps the true meaning of 'use their strength against them'!)

Oh, yeah. Repulse monkey. So much for "tai chi doesn’t work in a real fight." Silva uses tai chi strategy but at a distance while being calm and relaxed. :)

1. Lure (yin) — hands down, lean forward
2. Neutralize (hua) — rollback (lu), controlling distance (stepping)
3. Issue (fa) — right hand punch
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Re: CZQ vs The Clench

Postby Dmitri on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:47 am

GrahamB wrote:Anytime you hit somebody as they move forward the impact is much worse. (Perhaps the true meaning of 'use their strength against them'!)

I think it's mostly because he's in a full-on attack mode, and unaware of the punch. I.e. it's not because of increased speed of the punch from his moving forward -- Griffin was one of the toughest fighters at the time IIRC, and have taken much worse punishment and still kept fighting. It's because he's in the middle of his own attack and it's hard to "listen" when you're "shouting", or in tai chi terms, he's "so much yang (attacking) that it gives birth to yin (makes him/his defense weak)". As a result, he is completely unaware of that punch coming in, and that's what does it. The body is unprepared, so the brain goes "oops, something bad just happened to the head, dunno what's going on, but I better shut things down..."

If you watch some boxing/MMA matches where someone gets knocked out from a "light tap", you'll see that pattern very often, almost always IME.
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