Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

[Trick]

[
I did something similar many years ago. Together with a couple of friends, we used to start off quite hard when we practiced free push hands, and then continued to practice push hands for several hours with only a few short breaks. That was a good way to experiment, to force other different aspects of relaxation as you were soon forced to use your body differently. ...The day after though I usually could hardly move...
.

Kakie - the Karate push hands version is first practiced in a more deliberate forceful way(kind of how we “normally” would act in a confrontation)where muscles tire quickly. Gradually the practitioners mind and body will come to an understanding of doing it in the correct way, when to be soft, when to be hard.

[Interloper]

Although I have not trained Shotokan, this was the first style of one of my training partners. My understanding of the training beyond exhaustion differs from yours. Although the cognitive part of the mind may be part of it, my understanding was that it exhausted the muscles that are normally used (e.g., the fast twitch muscles that build up lactic acid and fatigue quickly), and allows the student to train using other muscles that are not quickly fatigued. So, the physical (& mental?) exhaustion allows the student to realize that they have another mechanism that they can continue using beyond what they would normally use, and this allows them to train/”rewire” that other system. This other system is one that is not normally “responsible for mechanical actions such as walking, or performing martial actions.” It seems to me that the Shotokan approach is just a different way of training to use the different system that is similar to what is developed in the “internal” arts. It may be a different way up the same mountain.

Hi LaoDan,
I see what you're saying. It's the body-muscle equivalent of pushing the mind to exhaustion (and in the IMA, in my experience, the mind usually gives out before the body does, because maintaining focused attention and intent takes a lot of energy).

Greater relaxation and release of tension, due to physical exhaustion, does force a person to let go of the muscles they tend to hunch up -- especially the shoulders, in karate -- but it still does not create "internal" processes, which are a distinct methodology that has to be constructed, and doesn't just "happen" when you're relaxed.

CIMA and JIMA have very specific training drills that create deliberate actions and interactions of Yin/In and Yang/Yo muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia. They "push and pull" on each other in deliberate, intent-driven movement, by design, not just by relaxation. Relaxation of the larger, conventional muscles is a by-product of this internal focus, not the cause of the internal focus.

[Trick]

CIMA and JIMA have very specific training drills that create deliberate actions and interactions of Yin/In and Yang/Yo muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia. They "push and pull" on each other in deliberate, intent-driven movement, by design, not just by relaxation. Relaxation of the larger, conventional muscles is a by-product of this internal focus, not the cause of the internal focus.

Now i don’t know what karate you’ve studied and for how long and to what level, but you actually describes karate practice of kihon and kata(basics&forms)What differs(in my experience)is that with the intent-driven movements there is an deeper focus early on in the “internal” martial arts. All the actions and interactions of “Yin&Yang” of muscles, tendons, and so on are there in Karate practice, the push and pull. But one might say it’s more of an self discovery way trough its kihon/Kata and kumite, actually they should not be hard to come to see and understand for an experienced Budoka, ist all there from day one in class. For some the understanding comes quicker for others the road is long(just as for the “internal” martial artists) As I wrote before, a lot of the karate of today has gone down the sport road and some of the old traditional methods are neglected and are replaced with “modern” exercises, for better or worse? So many of us have probably never have had the chance to touch hands with an truly long time traditionaly trained karateka...

[LaoDan]

I see many training methods as working towards similar results through different means. Perhaps they were developed independently, or perhaps they were the way that worked best for the particular founders or teachers of the various traditions/schools/styles.

One can work on activating specific muscles while avoiding the use of others, but most traditions appear to take a more holistic approach because feeling and controlling individual muscle groups may be extremely difficult for many students.

So we have:
- Performing techniques beyond exhaustion; tiring out normal movement muscles in order to use others instead for the techniques practiced...
- Standing in Zhan zhuang to, well, to exhaust certain muscles in order to use alternate ones, among other things like alignment, “energy”...
- Relax! (To not use certain movement muscles and to develop the use of others instead...) No, that is not relaxed, you need to relax more. That is still not relaxed enough; why can’t you tell that you are not relaxed? RELAX! Argh, just go and practice Zhan zhuang...

Or alternatives like:
- Emphasizing how movements are INITIATED, which usually produces a different than normal muscle usage/coordination throughout the movements...
- Examining larger and more easily noticeable anatomical features like the scapula positioning, or shoulders and elbows sinking...
- Using imagery to influence how one moves (feel the qi or flow..., or suspending the crown of the head as if suspended by a string..., or sink the qi..., or ...)...

I am certain that there are many other approaches, but you get the idea.

Each method will have strengths and weaknesses, and different individuals will find that some work better for them than others, but the preferred method(s) will likely differ from school to school, and from individual to individual. All seem to desire that the student use their bodies differently than they habitually do prior to starting training. Whether the result is “internal” or not probably depends on one’s definitions.

[Bao]

Relaxation of the larger, conventional muscles is a by-product of this internal focus, not the cause of the internal focus.

is that with the intent-driven movements there is an deeper focus early on in the “internal” martial arts. All the actions and interactions of “Yin&Yang” of muscles, tendons, and so on are there in Karate practice, the push and pull.

This discussion has completely avoided "breath". Like Sun Lutang said, styles are not internal or external, only breath is.

One of the most important aspects of internal principle is that the lungs and breath is kept relaxed and calm regardless what is happening, even upon releasing/issuing. When I see this very good guy, no doubt about that, I see him tense up his breath and chest when striking. If you understand internal principle and can use it is really about how you can control your relaxation and tension of body, breath and mind.

Speaking about styles become problematic. Not even Xingyi does separate internal and external the same way as in Tai Chi. Some styles like Baimei and Southern Dragon do not accept that internal an be separated from external. Now, when it comes to some Hakka arts (from where Karate comes from), this distinction becomes even more problematic. They certainly have deep internal training, but at the same time, they use heavy, forceful breathing techniques and exercises, power breathing, that goes very much against the northern internal arts. However, they can learn exceptional breath control from this practice. I've also had a Hung Gar practitioner demonstrating issuing of a perfectly relaxed strike, no effort, no wind up, no tension, no special or apparent tension of breath. A power seemingly coming out from nowhere and with really, scary power. Very similar to what good Xingyi and Tai Chi practitioners can do.

I have no idea what a Karateka could do, I have never watched something similar from a Karateka. And I have much too little knowledge of what kind of internal practice they do. But I don't believe that internal skill can come out from nowhere. A certain focus of practice based on a certain understanding of internal principles should be maintained for a very long time before being able to control breath and tension and before being able to really put it into use.

If external could grow internal skill, then internal should grow external skill. But if someone asked me to throw a good Karate punch, I would be terrible, the Karatekas would laugh at me and say that I strike like a girl. If someone told me that all music is the same, so if you practice the trumpet for a very long time you could automatically play a violin I would laugh at him. The body skill required for the instruments are very different. And so could be said of different body methods in various martial arts.

[Trick]

[
if someone asked me to throw a good Karate punch, I would be terrible, the Karatekas would laugh at me and say that I strike like a girl. If someone told me that all music is the same, so if you practice the trumpet for a very long time you could automatically play a violin I would laugh at him. The body skill required for the instruments are very different. And so could be said of different body methods in various martial arts.

When you throw a “Taiji punch” you might very well be throwing a “karate punch” and vice versa. A whole body coordinated process from ground to knuckle. Interesting observation -Gigō Funakoshi (son of the founder of Shotokan style)was often seen striking the makiwara(striking post) from an position with arms hanging down(relaxed), his strikes had such power that he happened to break the makiwaras every now and then, which I can very well believe from seeing my own teacher in Okinawa striking the makiwara.......Comparing TJQ and Karate with Trumpet and Violin, I don’t know. In Taiji and Karate the Instrument is the same, maybe one might say they differ in rhythm on the way but at master level they tune in to the same tone......Yes I’m no musician

[Interloper]

Now i don’t know what karate you’ve studied and for how long and to what level, but you actually describes karate practice of kihon and kata(basics&forms)What differs(in my experience)is that with the intent-driven movements there is an deeper focus early on in the “internal” martial arts. All the actions and interactions of “Yin&Yang” of muscles, tendons, and so on are there in Karate practice, the push and pull. But one might say it’s more of an self discovery way trough its kihon/Kata and kumite, actually they should not be hard to come to see and understand for an experienced Budoka, ist all there from day one in class. For some the understanding comes quicker for others the road is long(just as for the “internal” martial artists) As I wrote before, a lot of the karate of today has gone down the sport road and some of the old traditional methods are neglected and are replaced with “modern” exercises, for better or worse? So many of us have probably never have had the chance to touch hands with an truly long time traditionaly trained karateka...

Hi Trick,
I studied Shotokan, and transitioned to ITF taekwon-do, which essentially was "Korean karate: back in the day. The Chang Hon Hyung (forms) were thinly disguised Heian/Pinan kata. I have since then trained in internal arts for the past 20 years.

Everyone uses "Yin/Yang" or "In/Yo," "push/pull" and other such terms, but there are different layers of reference points, and they mean different things in the "external" and the "internal" arts.

For example, in the external art of Shotokan karate-do, there is "Yin/In" and "Yang/Yo" when punching, as one hip and arm is drawn back (Yin/In) while the other is driven forward (Yang/Yo). This is achieved through the use of muscles over the hip and in the torso, pulling one side/hip back and propelling the other side/hip forward. Observers can see the hips move forward and backward, even in highly skilled practioners who have refined their movement so that the movement is much smaller than that of a less experienced student.

In an internal art, there also is Yin/In and Yang/Yo drawing and propelling. However, the process and movements are initiated by an entirely different set of muscles, tendons and ligaments than the karate hip/torso muscle employment. If you watch an experience internal stylist, you will not see any chambering of the hips or any overt swinging or forward movement; the movement and dynamic is happening in the hip joints themselves, and in a couple other places. the large outer muscles of the hips and torso are relaxed. Still, one side/hip draws, the other propels. Yin/In and Yang/Yo. But different in mechanics from Shotokan.

[Trick]

Hi Trick,
I studied Shotokan,
For example, in the external art of Shotokan karate-do, there is "Yin/In" and "Yang/Yo" when punching, as one hip and arm is drawn back (Yin/In) while the other is driven forward (Yang/Yo). This is achieved through the use of muscles over the hip and in the torso, pulling one side/hip back and propelling the other side/hip forward. Observers can see the hips move forward and backward, even in highly skilled practioners who have refined their movement so that the movement is much smaller than that of a less experienced student.

In an internal art, there also is Yin/In and Yang/Yo drawing and propelling. However, the process and movements are initiated by an entirely different set of muscles, tendons and ligaments than the karate hip/torso muscle employment. If you watch an experience internal stylist, you will not see any chambering of the hips or any overt swinging or forward movement; the movement and dynamic is happening in the hip joints themselves, and in a couple other places. the large outer muscles of the hips and torso are relaxed. Still, one side/hip draws, the other propels. Yin/In and Yang/Yo. But different in mechanics from Shotokan.

Perfect, then you know the basic kihon and Kata practice is as you say, bigger expanded movement to build strengt first outwardly but gradually deeper. In some way we can compare it to Yang chengfu’s Taijiquan with big expansive postures that gradually internalize . You took the example of a basic (practice)punch that’s designed that way to not only train the body but also get the idea of push & pull. Then when going into the basic “blocks” there are things to observe between point A&B, now it actually get to resemble let’s say Xin/Xingyiquan, But here I’m not going to explain further. Anyway as you re a former Shotokan player you know when practically applied/in competition it comes out with no exaggerated movement

[Bao]

When you throw a “Taiji punch” you might very well be throwing a “karate punch” and vice versa. A whole body coordinated process from ground to knuckle.

I absolutely don’t agree. Jin in Tai Chi is (read: should be) an expression of the internal state, just as much as, or maybe even more than, an expression of physical movement and coordination. But also, I’ve never watched a Karateka throw a punch that had Tai Chi body coordination and I’ve never watched a good Tai Chi player throwing a punch with the same coordination as in Karate, except maybe some one using Chen style’s more external expression. (I don’t count most Chen style fajin punching as internal.)

For example, in the external art of Shotokan karate-do, there is "Yin/In" and "Yang/Yo" when punching, as one hip and arm is drawn back (Yin/In) while the other is driven forward (Yang/Yo). This is achieved through the use of muscles over the hip and in the torso, pulling one side/hip back and propelling the other side/hip forward. Observers can see the hips move forward and backward, even in highly skilled practioners who have refined their movement so that the movement is much smaller than that of a less experienced student.

In an internal art, there also is Yin/In and Yang/Yo drawing and propelling. However, the process and movements are initiated by an entirely different set of muscles, tendons and ligaments than the karate hip/torso muscle employment. If you watch an experience internal stylist, you will not see any chambering of the hips or any overt swinging or forward movement; the movement and dynamic is happening in the hip joints themselves, and in a couple other places. the large outer muscles of the hips and torso are relaxed. Still, one side/hip draws, the other propels. Yin/In and Yang/Yo. But different in mechanics from Shotokan.

Agree with this, most of it anyway. In Tai Chi, I dont believe to put in too much focus on any single body part as the hips. That would create a hip driven punch and not a whole body movement driven punch. Again, the internal state is equally or maybe more important than the external.

[Interloper]

In an internal art, there also is Yin/In and Yang/Yo drawing and propelling. However, the process and movements are initiated by an entirely different set of muscles, tendons and ligaments than the karate hip/torso muscle employment. If you watch an experience internal stylist, you will not see any chambering of the hips or any overt swinging or forward movement; the movement and dynamic is happening in the hip joints themselves, and in a couple other places. the large outer muscles of the hips and torso are relaxed. Still, one side/hip draws, the other propels. Yin/In and Yang/Yo. But different in mechanics from Shotokan.

Agree with this, most of it anyway. In Tai Chi, I dont believe to put in too much focus on any single body part as the hips. That would create a hip driven punch and not a whole body movement driven punch. Again, the internal state is equally or maybe more important than the external.

Hi Bao,
We don't disagree. I didn't mean to imply that only one specific area (such as the hip joints) is being used for the "internal" equivalent of the "external" karate punch. Being in a state of 6-directional force (i.e. Peng) requires many other processes simultaneously in action. However, I was comparing only the difference in the use and meaning of "hips" between Shotokan karate, and an internal art such as taiji chuan. The Japanese karate stylist physically draws back the hip with large outer muscles to chamber a punch; the internal stylist creates suction and propulsion in the hip joints and dantian/tanden (aided by the feet, and a sophisticated combination of other factors), and mingmen/meimon to accomplish the same task... with different results (i.e. concussive force and power, vs. the percussive force and power of a karate punch).

[Trick]

When you throw a “Taiji punch” you might very well be throwing a “karate punch” and vice versa. A whole body coordinated process from ground to knuckle.

I absolutely don’t agree. Jin in Tai Chi is (read: should be) an expression of the internal state, just as much as, or maybe even more than, an expression of physical movement and coordination. But also, I’ve never watched a Karateka throw a punch that had Tai Chi body coordination and I’ve never watched a good Tai Chi player throwing a punch with the same coordination as in Karate, except maybe some one using Chen style’s more external expression. (I don’t count most Chen style fajin punching as internal.)

For example, in the external art of Shotokan karate-do, there is "Yin/In" and "Yang/Yo" when punching, as one hip and arm is drawn back (Yin/In) while the other is driven forward (Yang/Yo). This is achieved through the use of muscles over the hip and in the torso, pulling one side/hip back and propelling the other side/hip forward. Observers can see the hips move forward and backward, even in highly skilled practioners who have refined their movement so that the movement is much smaller than that of a less experienced student.


In Tai Chi, I dont believe to put in too much focus on any single body part as the hips. That would create a hip driven punch and not a whole body movement driven punch. Again, the internal state is equally or maybe more important than the external.

I assume you talking about punching during Kata/Form and other solo practice exercises that don’t involve striking a target ? Speed up your Taiji reverse punch standing in a bow’ish stance, the hip will be much more visible, just because. The hips re all over there in Taijiquan but the movement of them are much more subtle when going trough the form in slow pace “sinking the Qi”, I do agree that the additional use of the spine is more in play in the CIMA’s at least more early on in the practice. In Tongbeiquan och XYQ the hip/waste rotation is very much there too but “forceable” narrowed down by its required stances, this is to train from small get as much as possible effect out. This method are there in Karate too that of course is not just about hips and waist but also structure, exercising specific areas in the hips, lower abdomen(dantian if you like)and back. But as I written previously it’s exercise that in the old times where the very basic exercise to be drilled over and over is today more than often neglected in the favor of more modern exercises, for better or worse if has to be used in combat?I don’t know.....But for worse if try to argue for the existence of an “internal” dimension in Karate on an IMA’s forum

[Bao]

I assume you talking about punching during Kata/Form and other solo practice exercises that don’t involve striking a target ? Speed up your Taiji reverse punch standing in a bow’ish stance, the hip will be much more visible, just because. The hips re all over there in Taijiquan but the movement of them are much more subtle when going trough the form in slow pace “sinking the Qi”, I do agree that the additional use of the spine is more in play in the CIMA’s at least more early on in the practice. In Tongbeiquan och XYQ the hip/waste rotation is very much there too but “forceable” narrowed down by its required stances, this is to train from small get as much as possible effect out. This method are there in Karate too that of course is not just about hips and waist but also structure, exercising specific areas in the hips, lower abdomen(dantian if you like)and back.

Who spoke about form? I am talking about power generation, real practical use. The common method in Karate is that the hip lead, “punch with the hip”. It’s a good common method for many different styles not only Karate. With this method the whole side of the body strikes and not only the fist. Most people will stabilize the body upon impact by tension, usually both fist and breath. Whole body movement in Tai Chi is different, the hips doesn’t lead. The middle leads and the relaxed internal state must be preserved through the whole movement, even upon impact and thereafter. The body structure only is used for stabilizing upon impact. IMO, Tai Chi relaxed punching method should be practiced against a bag, a protection or similar, completely relaxed, completely calm, no tensing up, and yet with full speed. I myself practice this everyday.

[Trick]

You view of Karate in combat or just striking objects as some might assume that Taijiquan’ists would just slooowly move in combat or in striking objects....Interesting, makes one wonder.

[Bao]

Yes my knowledge about Karate is extremely limited. I’ve never claimed anything else.

[wayne hansen]

The way most people generate power in tai chi is the method I avoid
To say there is one method is to not recognise variation in styles and practicioners
I am sure the same is true in many other arts as well