Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Interloper on Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:18 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The way most people generate power in tai chi is the method I avoid
To say there is one method is to not recognise variation in styles and practicioners
I am sure the same is true in many other arts as well


Yes, there are many lines of taiji chuan and other internal martial arts, and many levels of knowledge and skill. When some of us discuss the processes, we are thinking of those that are practicing the classical methods and principles... in other words, the "ideal."
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Interloper on Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:24 pm

Trick wrote:But here I’m not going to explain further. Anyway as you re a former Shotokan player you know when practically applied/in competition it comes out with no exaggerated movement


Yes, as the formal movements of kata have the exaggerated overt chambering which is not practical in practical or competition application. In that respect, movement is far less overt outside the practice of kata. However, that less-visible and more refined movement still requires chambering using the same muscle groups as in the kata; they're just smaller movements. Internal method for punching comes from a completely different set of muscles and connective tissues, and a different mechanical process, regardless of how minimal the Shotokan karateka's movements may appear to the eye. The difference is in the executive mechanics, and the "feel" of the power generated.
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:24 pm

Ideal !
Please show
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Interloper on Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:34 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Ideal !
Please show


What do you think you'd be able to see?
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:14 pm

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:But here I’m not going to explain further. Anyway as you re a former Shotokan player you know when practically applied/in competition it comes out with no exaggerated movement


Yes, as the formal movements of kata have the exaggerated overt chambering which is not practical in practical or competition application. In that respect, movement is far less overt outside the practice of kata. However, that less-visible and more refined movement still requires chambering using the same muscle groups as in the kata; they're just smaller movements. Internal method for punching comes from a completely different set of muscles and connective tissues, and a different mechanical process, regardless of how minimal the Shotokan karateka's movements may appear to the eye. The difference is in the executive mechanics, and the "feel" of the power generated.

First effect of the exaggerated big movements is a body building/shaping effect-shenfa. Then for those who have opened their eyes see that there is more going on within those big exaggerated moves, one see that there is nothing exaggerated at all. Every posture and especially in the transitions between posture there’s important aspects to notice and harness....Now I agree that many if not most Shotokan players have not gotten their eyes opened for this to see in their forms/katas, other styles such as GoJu-ryu, Uechi-ryu and some Shorin-ryu schools have a more open teaching on this.......But as I previously made a comparison of the big “exaggerated” postures of Shotokan with the big frame of yang- Taijiquan, there’s also the similarity of self-discovery/exploring trough practice in kihon/Kata and kumite, some get it some don’t, it’s often not an Sensei tell all story....
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:23 am

Interloper wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Ideal !
Please show


What do you think you'd be able to see?



Enough
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Trick on Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:44 am

Another aspect often unknown by Shotokan players is the influence from Jigen-ryu(sword/fencing school) and its “one strike”. This concept influenced the Kumite(sparring/fighting) of Shotokan and later the over all competition rules of traditional Karate. For the one strike to work one must possess great understanding of timing when interacting with an opponent, it must be delivered with perfect precision backed with correct power. It can not be telegraphed or it will fail, the perfect timing must therefore also happen within, so the whole body in unison. Whole body awareness holding a perfect center, being relaxed but alert in body and mind is of course an aspect reached in Karate too.
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:17 am

https://youtu.be/YhYmJyfMlV0


Some thoughts on karate sparing from someone who was there at the start
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby middleway on Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:58 am

I am currently coaching a shotokan 4th Dan and his students at his school and also a wado ryu organization head here in the UK. They are both good level but the way they move and recieve or produce force very different to the internal arts I have experienced.
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:35 am

middleway"the way they move and recieve or produce force very different to the internal arts I have experienced.[/quote]

My experience as well with Karatekas. It's all very different.

[quote="Trick wrote:
For the one strike to work one must possess great understanding of timing when interacting with an opponent, it must be delivered with perfect precision backed with correct power. It can not be telegraphed or it will fail, the perfect timing must therefore also happen within, so the whole body in unison. Whole body awareness holding a perfect center, being relaxed but alert in body and mind is of course an aspect reached in Karate too.


I've tried to find some high level and more soft Karate on the tubes, found nothing yet.

General IMA principles are that body and hand moves together, the middle initiate movement, hand coordinates with the dantian, when one part of the body stops, the whole body stops.

This is a 10th Dan Shotokan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U7KPaiZJ08

I find nothing here that I can associate with IMA. The limbs move independent from the body, he is hard all over, even his breath is hard and he makes effort breathing.

So if you could show me any Karate vid that shows anything near what you are suggesting.... :-\

BTW, In Spain the Catalonian Karate Federation has claimed that Tai Chi Chuan is derived from Karate. ;D
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Bao on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:46 am

From a Facebook page, a post by someone who had practiced both Karate and Chinese IMA. Sums up a whole lot IMO:

As an example your Karate will tell you to turn the hips and use hip power. But it will not get into details so much. Then you will naturally turn your hips externally, from the outside, it will be a big turn. Whereas in internal Kung Fu including TJQ and XYQ, you will practice turning from the Kua, deep from the hip crease. It will be a big internal movement, but on the outside it may not look big. It is very precise. Then there is the knowledge of your shoulder not going forward much as you turn and punch, you standing straight, but that straightness and hip-shoulder unification is not explained and practiced in detail. In internal Kung Fu very minor separations between hips and shoulders will be fixed, for whole body unification.

Standing straight, or right posture, by itself is also a sophisticated issue. Karate will tell you to stand straight without much sophistication. In internal Kung Fu it will be learned from Zhan Zhuang, standing Qigong. It will straighten your spine, more literally, or with a natural slight outwards curve. Not like the "S" curve which people think is straight. This kind of straight is not taught in mainstream Karate, although I did hear about one Sensei teaching something like this. The spine does not only get straight, it also opens up, so the space between the vertebrates open.

When the spine is straight and open, you can "compress and expand" the spine. And not just the spine, you practice this on all joints actually. Then this is used in your power generation for internal Kung Fu. Karate, at least the mainstream one that we know about, will not teach you compression and expansion. Btw, this kind of internal movement can only be done soft, tension will collapse and close the joints.

Then external styles including mainstream Karate will teach you to stay relaxed at first so that your punch can go out easily and fast, and tense at the point of impact so that you can have power. This is not the internal way. In internal style you will stay soft all the time, from the beginning of the punch to the end of the punch. At the point of impact, you do not need tension for power, you use "soft power", you use power connection throughout the body without tension. So all you need is to deliver what comes from the body, the arm will channel it and stay soft. That said, I did see Hitoshi Kasuya Sensei from Shotokan Karate using attacking technique like this. He criticized everyone for tensing up in the attacks, and demonstrated that he can push or hit someone while staying soft. I think this is very rare to find in the Karate world. And this probably comes back to "on the top levels (master levels), all martial arts reach the same thing". Although I think that rarely happens in practice, as it is very difficult to figure out internals without someone teaching you those systematically. Perhaps Kasuya Sensei teaches that in his Dojo, I don't know. But then again, that is just "one" aspect of internals among many others, and is not enough by itself.

Related to that, external styles and Karate will tell you to breath out at the point of impact together with that sudden tension. It is like an explosion of breath with tension. In internal Kung Fu, breath is natural, power does not rely to it, and you can hit at all stages of your breath. This is also related to not tensing up as you punch.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:40 am

Bao wrote:
middleway"the way they move and recieve or produce force very different to the internal arts I have experienced.


My experience as well with Karatekas. It's all very different.

[quote="Trick wrote:For the one strike to work one must possess great understanding of timing when interacting with an opponent, it must be delivered with perfect precision backed with correct power. It can not be telegraphed or it will fail, the perfect timing must therefore also happen within, so the whole body in unison. Whole body awareness holding a perfect center, being relaxed but alert in body and mind is of course an aspect reached in Karate too.


I've tried to find some high level and more soft Karate on the tubes, found nothing yet.

General IMA principles are that body and hand moves together, the middle initiate movement, hand coordinates with the dantian, when one part of the body stops, the whole body stops.

This is a 10th Dan Shotokan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U7KPaiZJ08

I find nothing here that I can associate with IMA. The limbs move independent from the body, he is hard all over, even his breath is hard and he makes effort breathing.

So if you could show me any Karate vid that shows anything near what you are suggesting.... :-\

BTW, In Spain the Catalonian Karate Federation has claimed that Tai Chi Chuan is derived from Karate. ;D[/quote]
Don’t know what you mean “high level” ? In post four of this thread i posted two vids of high level Karatekas in action internal or not......About the tensed karate. The sudden tension(Kime) displayed is to be gone as sudden as is came, as the crack of a whip, but I agree far to many overemphasize the tension part. The tension needed should be just enough to stop the for example speeding punch one has thrown, here I’m talking about a punch thrown in solo practiceI exercises. The speedier the punch the more visible the hips an torso action in accordance . Traditionally in karate the makiwara(striking post) where used to refine the punch or any other strike. This equipment and similar is mostly absent in Shotokan(and probably also in the other “mainland” Japanese Karate styles) Dojos(practice hall) in the west, maybe different nowadays. But anyway practitioners should get an understanding trough the basics, forms and sparring exercises.....The makiwara - https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMjUyND ... w.20023042.
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:49 am

Now I’ve searched the (Chinese) tubes for high level free fighting and object striking “interna”Taiji practitioners but so far found non
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:10 pm

Some additional theorizing...The “internal” striking mostly happen when one strike an incoming object(attacker launching forward)where the defender almost solely can rely on body structure(and a slight positioning change) in an counter strike with minimal or perhaps no hip/torso rotation the aggressor basically run into a fist, elbow or maybe shoulder. Why the effect of such a strike is great? Because the aggressor in mid attack do not expect to be hit....The correct body structure punch can of course be done by the attacker, while that process will be more visible for an onlooker the receiver will not see it if executed with correct timing......If speaking specifically Taijiquan and reviewing the large frame(and probably the other frames too)of Yang Taijiquan, we see that all suggested striking is done while “leading” an opponent into the strikes, a shoulder, elbow or a fist, therefore the mechanics behind those strikes will be lesser visible compared to strikes that “chase”. An opponent is to basically stumble/fall fall onto those hard parts, being hit while not expecting it the greater the effect....................Now all this is easier said than done, and maybe more so when put an Internal label on it.
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Re: Hotton (Karate): Internal connection, Leading with intention

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:16 am

Most of the knockouts in the UFC are done that way
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