Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

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Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 am

Ian Sinclair puts up a woo-woo magic ball show, trying to convince people that woo-woo hopping is just about simple physics. Adding mass to velocity, yeah right, as that would work??!! ;D

You can see, it looks completely fake. Stuart Shaw confirmed that this is indeed fake. So he said at least. And he is going to make another slow-mo stop motion video to prove that these balls are faking it! :P

;D ;D ;D

.... a good demonstration of simple physics IMO.... Go to 6.35 if you want to skip the talk and get straight to the magic. ;)

https://youtu.be/BHTIonsFiJc?t=395

Last edited by Bao on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:15 am

His idea is correct but his understanding seems to be not....
He doesn't talk about nor mention a "moment"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_J3gRQHi8

nor talked about rebond force


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UHS883_P60

which in most cases is shown in many taiji demos where the force looks disportantaly to the amount of
effort used or shown.

Ian Sinclair puts up a woo-woo magic ball show, trying to convince people that woo-woo hopping is just about simple physics. Adding mass to velocity, yeah right, as that would work??!! ;D


It does work just not in the way he explained it....

taiji 101


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NueuPY2Yqq4
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby zrm on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:43 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_cannon

I don't see anything wrong with the explanation of the cannon. Of course its not the only physics principle that applies to Taiji.

The cannon is why you want to connect the foot to the ground at exact the same time as the fist impacts in Xing Yi, but in doing so you also need to instantaneously form a bridge from the fist to the ground. If there is no bridge it doesn't work. It's easy with relatively easy with balls because they are spherical and always forming a bridge to the points of contact. It's also worth studying the Newtons cradle and the dynamics in snooker and pool when you hit one ball that is already touching another ball, or stop shots as in when you get a cue ball to stop dead on contact with the target.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:51 am

Yeah, true, movement and pivot point come into play as well. Nice vids. 8-)

But I still don't believe that you have convinced Shaw. He is still determined to make a video to prove that the balls are faking it. ;D
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:27 am

zrm wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_cannon

I don't see anything wrong with the explanation of the cannon. Of course its not the only physics principle that applies to Taiji.

The cannon is why you want to connect the foot to the ground at exact the same time as the fist impacts in Xing Yi, but in doing so you also need to instantaneously form a bridge from the fist to the ground. If there is no bridge it doesn't work.


My own point was more about why Tai Chi can look fake. A seemingly small movement results in a big movement. It's not fake, but some people tend to put the woo-woo label to both real and obvious faked attempts. The model explains how you transfer mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyHmxyzpwcU&t=0s



Don't know exactly about xingyi, but the timing with the following foot certainly adds some magic to it. Maybe this model explains why. The funny thing is that the following foot doesn't need to be put down very hard. In baji they have seemingly forceful stomping, but from beginner to advanced the development goes from apparent force to soft and soundless. The timing is what is important here as well.

Completely forgot about the Galilean cannon.... :P
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby charles on Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:53 am

windwalker wrote:His idea is correct but his understanding seems to be not....
He doesn't talk about nor mention a "moment"


He mentions "leverage" in passing. Same thing.

As I was watching the video, he seemed to be attempting to implement aspects of Hong's Practical Method without really identifying, distinguishing and understanding the basics of the it: then he mentioned having met Chen Zhonghua.

Taiji people often mention centrifugal force, as Ian did. Centrifugal force doesn't come into play unless you are rotating something about an axis with sufficient velocity. Slow-moving applications have insufficient rotational velocity to have any relevant centrifugal force: it's leverage. Similarly, momentum doesn't enter into it without sufficient velocity.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:43 am

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:His idea is correct but his understanding seems to be not....
He doesn't talk about nor mention a "moment"


He mentions "leverage" in passing. Same thing.

As I was watching the video, he seemed to be attempting to implement aspects of Hong's Practical Method without really identifying, distinguishing and understanding the basics of the it: then he mentioned having met Chen Zhonghua.

Taiji people often mention centrifugal force, as Ian did. Centrifugal force doesn't come into play unless you are rotating something about an axis with sufficient velocity. Slow-moving applications have insufficient rotational velocity to have any relevant centrifugal force: it's leverage. Similarly, momentum doesn't enter into it without sufficient velocity.


mmm,,,whats that word,,,maybe "internal"
of course to understand what has to have velocity, the why / what / it acts on
the subject of many discussions. :-\
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:34 pm

You wouldn't happen to have a look to Stuart's takedown of this, would you? Would be good for a laugh
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:50 pm

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:His idea is correct but his understanding seems to be not....
He doesn't talk about nor mention a "moment"


He mentions "leverage" in passing. Same thing.

its not, but ok...

As I was watching the video, he seemed to be attempting to implement aspects of Hong's Practical Method without really identifying, distinguishing and understanding the basics of the it: then he mentioned having met Chen Zhonghua.

Taiji people often mention centrifugal force, as Ian did. Centrifugal force doesn't come into play unless you are rotating something about an axis with sufficient velocity. Slow-moving applications have insufficient rotational velocity to have any relevant centrifugal force: it's leverage. Similarly, momentum doesn't enter into it without sufficient velocity.


You seem to be confused as to what centrifugal force is and how it comes into play....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ZVCnD9t18
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby charles on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:34 pm

windwalker wrote:its not, but ok...


I stand corrected. A moment is a quantity that characterizes the rotational effect of a force acting on a rigid body. A lever is a type of simple machine is which a rigid body is capable of rotating about a fulcrum. The mechanical advantage of a lever can be determined by considering the balance of moments about the fulcrum.

I wrote,
Taiji people often mention centrifugal force, as Ian did. Centrifugal force doesn't come into play unless you are rotating something about an axis with sufficient velocity. Slow-moving applications have insufficient rotational velocity to have any relevant centrifugal force: it's leverage. Similarly, momentum doesn't enter into it without sufficient velocity.


You replied:
You seem to be confused as to what centrifugal force is and how it comes into play...


What is it that is "confused" about my statement regarding centrifugal force?
Last edited by charles on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:45 pm

charles wrote:What is it that is "confused" about my statement regarding centrifugal force?



charles wrote:Taiji people often mention centrifugal force, as Ian did. Centrifugal force doesn't come into play unless you are rotating something about an axis with sufficient velocity. Slow-moving applications have insufficient rotational velocity to have any relevant centrifugal force: it's leverage. Similarly, momentum doesn't enter into it without sufficient velocity.


its not leverage, there are other factors that come into play besides rotational velocity that allows one to feel what is called centrifugal force.



Centrifugal force is also known as a "fictitious" or "pseudo" force"

"In a rotating reference frame, all objects, regardless of their state of motion, appear to be under the influence of a radially (from the axis of rotation) outward force that is proportional to their mass, to the distance from the axis of rotation of the frame, and to the square of the angular velocity of the frame.[5][6] This is the centrifugal force.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby charles on Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:15 am

windwalker wrote:"In a rotating reference frame, all objects, regardless of their state of motion, appear to be under the influence of a radially (from the axis of rotation) outward force that is proportional to their mass, to the distance from the axis of rotation of the frame, and to the square of the angular velocity of the frame.[5][6] This is the centrifugal force.


And, as the angular velocity approaches zero, what is the magnitude of the centrifugal force?

At near zero angular velocity how much does centrifugal force enter into an application? That was my point.

What many are attributing to centrifugal force is actually the application of leverage.

Is "Four ounces deflects 1000 pounds" a statement of leverage, or of something else? Does momentum enter into that one statement? Does centrifugal force enter into that one statement?
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:44 am

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:"In a rotating reference frame, all objects, regardless of their state of motion, appear to be under the influence of a radially (from the axis of rotation) outward force that is proportional to their mass, to the distance from the axis of rotation of the frame, and to the square of the angular velocity of the frame.[5][6] This is the centrifugal force.


And, as the angular velocity approaches zero, what is the magnitude of the centrifugal force?

At near zero angular velocity how much does centrifugal force enter into an application? That was my point.

What many are attributing to centrifugal force is actually the application of leverage.
kinda depends on their understanding, I'm sure if you or others who write clear
can make the distinctions.


Is "Four ounces deflects 1000 pounds" a statement of leverage, or of something else? Does momentum enter into that one statement? Does centrifugal force enter into that one statement?


Its not leverage, which would be easily understood and explainable to most...
Many teachers really go out of their way to show its not this often making the demos look faked...

hence the title of the thread woo-woo taiji ball magic...I felt what
the OP teacher demoing, explanations were confused you noted some other aspects...

With those I work with we use physic theorems as much as possible to explain whats going
on, why and how... corrections made are all based on this.

First contact and what is meant by contact

4oz is a level of contact that enables one to affect the contact point
at level that does not involve the frame.

really about as much as I care to say considering
some of the other threads....its kinda pointless....

thanks for what seem to be honest / open inquiries ;)

I've found that a basic and rigorous approach to viewing
things though the lens of physics makes many things understandable
in a way that echos much of what is written, shown that many question...
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:52 pm

hence the title of the thread woo-woo taiji ball magic...I felt what
the OP teacher demoing, explanations were confused ...


It was just a joke WW. There are people out there who hunt what they call fake tai chi, woo woo and hopping amongst other things. I thought what Ian did was clever bringing up the Gallilean Canon and he did it in a good way. I liked it.
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Re: Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:00 pm

Yes I don't think there is any woo woo in Ian
I think he is just a good honest workman with a sence of humor
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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