Ian's woo-woo tai chi ball magic

[windwalker]

hence the title of the thread woo-woo taiji ball magic...I felt what
the OP teacher demoing, explanations were confused ...

It was just a joke WW. There are people out there who hunt what they call fake tai chi, woo woo and hopping amongst other things. I thought what Ian did was clever bringing up the Gallilean Canon and he did it in a good way. I liked it.

its all about the woo woo

@ you and "wayne" yes from what I've seen of his work I too also like it, he looks and sounds like a good, sincere teacher.
I do feel he may be a little confused in some of his explanations but close enough, it may be my own understanding is confused also

With those I work with we tend to examine things quite closely willing to change or adjust as needed.....its not dogma

we use conservation of momentum and whats called returning force along with other theorems .
interesting "Galilean cannon" wasn't aware there is a name for a demo device showing this
...good to know

[marvin8]

"In a rotating reference frame, all objects, regardless of their state of motion, appear to be under the influence of a radially (from the axis of rotation) outward force that is proportional to their mass, to the distance from the axis of rotation of the frame, and to the square of the angular velocity of the frame.[5][6] This is the centrifugal force.

And, as the angular velocity approaches zero, what is the magnitude of the centrifugal force?

At near zero angular velocity how much does centrifugal force enter into an application? That was my point.

What many are attributing to centrifugal force is actually the application of leverage.

Is "Four ounces deflects 1000 pounds" a statement of leverage, or of something else? Does momentum enter into that one statement? Does centrifugal force enter into that one statement?

I am not sure if you are saying there is not enough velocity for centrifugal force. However, it sounds like Ian is describing the kinetic chain and centrifugal force which is used in sports (e.g., backhand in tennis, combat, etc.)

Starting at 8:28 Ian explains:

If you have that same centrifugal connection and I do the same thing, I am going to bounce off the earth. Because, it’s the earth against the earth. . . . So, there’s two parts to this. There’s the hips rotating. So, the hips rotate. That moves you a little bit. Then, the hands move. . . . If I conflate the rotation and extension, then that happens. . . .

Excerpt from "The Universal Swing – Using Physics To Hit More Effortlessly," https://www.feeltennis.net/universal-swing/:

When we turn back, the arm is swung away from the body into a “backswing”. When the body stops, the arm continues to swing a bit more.

Then the forward turn of the body accelerates the arm forward and swings it away from the body again.

So, this is simple physics behind this swing. It happens by itself if we combine a pendulum with rotating the body.

When we time the body turns right, the pendulum (your arm and the racket) will automatically accelerate because we are creating a centrifugal force.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeElHXkCG7g

[origami_itto]

The word I hear him say at 8:28 is centripetal, that may affect the discussion a bit if academic rigor is the kind of thing you're into.

[Steve James]

Centripetal force is the "real" force that is preventing a spun object from flying away. The centrifugal force is not really a force at all; it just seems like it from the perspective of the thing being spun. If the centripetal force is released, angular momentum will cause the object to fly away in a straight line.

Imo, though it's not a matter of leverage, per se, it isn't irrelevant, since the force causing the object to travel in a circular path may indeed be leverage. For example, holding on to an opponent's wrist and elbow while turning is a way of using leverage to create centripetal force. Centripetal simply means moving toward the/a center, Centrifugal just means moving (fleeing/flying) away.

So, while you're spinning the opponent, you're using centripetal force. There's no centrifugal force effect unless you let go, and then it's not centrifugal anymore anyway. The "force," at that point is the effect of angular momentum.

The demonstration with the balls is interesting, but I'm not sure the physics is relevant to tcc. Certainly, Newtonian mechanics apply. However, humans are no more like basketballs than we are like steel balls. Conservation of energy is universal; but rebound ability is not. In general, we are often dealing with collisions where the physics of car accidents would apply --such as inconsistent deformation at weak points (that neither inflated nor solid spheres have).

So, imo, learning to efficiently utilize leverage would be preferable to trying to reproduce Galileo's cannon.

[windwalker]

Centripetal force is the "real" force that is preventing a spun object from flying away. The centrifugal force is not really a force at all; it just seems like it from the perspective of the thing being spun. If the centripetal force is released, angular momentum will cause the object to fly away in a straight line.

Imo, though it's not a matter of leverage, per se, it isn't irrelevant, since the force causing the object to travel in a circular path may indeed be leverage. For example, holding on to an opponent's wrist and elbow while turning is a way of using leverage to create centripetal force. Centripetal simply means moving toward the/a center, Centrifugal just means moving (fleeing/flying) away.

So, while you're spinning the opponent, you're using centripetal force. There's no centrifugal force effect unless you let go, and then it's not centrifugal anymore anyway. The "force," at that point is the effect of angular momentum.

The demonstration with the balls is interesting, but I'm not sure the physics is relevant to tcc. Certainly, Newtonian mechanics apply. However, humans are no more like basketballs than we are like steel balls. Conservation of energy is universal; but rebound ability is not. In general, we are often dealing with collisions where the physics of car accidents would apply --such as inconsistent deformation at weak points (that neither inflated nor solid spheres have).

So, imo, learning to efficiently utilize leverage would be preferable to trying to reproduce Galileo's cannon.

Care to share your understanding of what Pung/Peng Jin is, how or what makes or causes it to be formed, and how it's used.

If that's a little much a simple explanation would be okay.
Your post has some things that I find confusing in order to understand this it would be good to know your understanding of pung Jin.

[marvin8]

Centripetal force is the "real" force that is preventing a spun object from flying away. The centrifugal force is not really a force at all; it just seems like it from the perspective of the thing being spun. If the centripetal force is released, angular momentum will cause the object to fly away in a straight line.

Imo, though it's not a matter of leverage, per se, it isn't irrelevant, since the force causing the object to travel in a circular path may indeed be leverage. For example, holding on to an opponent's wrist and elbow while turning is a way of using leverage to create centripetal force. Centripetal simply means moving toward the/a center, Centrifugal just means moving (fleeing/flying) away.

So, while you're spinning the opponent, you're using centripetal force. There's no centrifugal force effect unless you let go, and then it's not centrifugal anymore anyway. The "force," at that point is the effect of angular momentum.

The demonstration with the balls is interesting, but I'm not sure the physics is relevant to tcc. Certainly, Newtonian mechanics apply. However, humans are no more like basketballs than we are like steel balls. Conservation of energy is universal; but rebound ability is not. In general, we are often dealing with collisions where the physics of car accidents would apply --such as inconsistent deformation at weak points (that neither inflated nor solid spheres have).

So, imo, learning to efficiently utilize leverage would be preferable to trying to reproduce Galileo's cannon.

Care to share your understanding of what Pung/Peng Jin is, how or what makes or causes it to be formed, and how it's used.

A couple articles touching on centripetal and centrifugal force related to tai chi.

From “Counter Force,” http://barrietaichi.com/counter-force-in-tai-chi/:

The classics say that “to go left one must first move right and to move up one must first move down”.

This teaching can be looked at in a few different ways but today I’ll be talking about counter force, what it is, how to train it and what to watch for.

Counter force – a contrary or opposing force or tendency

When one first learns the very first form in Yang style tai chi (commencing the forms) the body will likely rise with the arms and fall with the arms. While this is intuitive, it is actually incorrect. One must initiate counter force to perform the movement correctly.

First of all, the arms should never move by themselves. The arms and hands are the last part of the chain so to speak and should only move due to the energy reaching them after the base has initiated a sequence of events.

In “commencing the forms” the base is drawn down into the earth followed by the torso. It is this drawing down of energy, base through torso that then allows the arms to float up. This is the counter force one should cultivate.

Example, if you want to push a car along a level road, you’ll have to push your feet against the ground in order to get it moving, that’s the same counter force as in “commencing the forms”. Push one way to get something moving in the other direction.

Now, when the arms are in the raised position, you should again push into the ground at the base and feel the head pulled up as if by a string. The counter force of this upward energy allows the arms to float down.

One can find this same energy in the majority of the forms.

Cultivating counter force is simple. All one has to do is pick a singular form (example – ward off) and perform that one form by itself. When training the form first concentrate on the downward/sinking feeling (base first then torso) and then just let the arm rise (float up) into position. I would also suggest changing the breath to an inhale as the arm rises. This strategy will really soften the form and allow the arm to float.

After 10 repetitions on each side, move on to another form.

Single whip is the best form with which to cultivate the counter forces of centripetal and centrifugal force. Centripetal force is the condensing spiraling energy that funnels a large potential down into a concentrated point. This is seen in nature everywhere from tornado’s to spiral galaxies. Centrifugal force is the expansion of the same condensed energy outward. In either case the amount of energy remains the same whether condensed or expressed.

Once you start to cultivate counter force watch for its potential uses. Push hands practice will open up many opportunities to play with as will a negotiation or a conversation.

Keep training,

Excerpts from "The Correct Internal Principles of Tai Chi," http://www.taichisociety.net/taichi-principles.html:

Circular And Spiralling Movement

All Tai Chi movements are circular and spiralling; the circularity of Tai Chi corresponds with the structure of the human body, and allows unbroken continuous movements; the spiralling of Tai Chi works in perfect consonance with all of the body's systems because the Chi is spiralling around the body. Outwardly these movements propagate centripetal and centrifugal power which arises from the turning of the waist from side to side. The power spawned flows through the body causing the wrists and hands to spiral inwards ( yin ) and outwards ( yang ). This in effect stimulates massive energy into the hands, and the fingers feel the sensation of fullness. The subtle rotations of the joints, together with the spiralling, twisting movements of the torso, produces tremendous Chi which emanates from the energy reservoir ( Tan Tien ); it streams like a great river around the body, spiralling up and down around the arms and legs. At a very high level the Chi materializes like a tidal wave and vibrates prodigiously through the body, precipitating the fingers to shake while performing Tai Chi. This also unblocks the blockages in the meridians within an instant, and makes the body very healthy. . . .

Centrifugal And Centripetal Waist Power

All body movements in Tai Chi must be directed by the waist. This transfers the power from the lower to the upper body; the waist directs the rooting power from the Earth and the legs. It uses that power to generate a great amount of centrifugal and centripetal force by turning the torso from side to side. It also releases a tremendous amount of Chi from the Tan Tien, which then flows throughout the body. In Tai Chi forms this enormous energy is manifested in the palms and fingers; this occurs when all movements and power are unified. If another part of the body, rather than the waist, directs the movements, than the movements become segmented, the energy and power are greatly diminished, and the full health benefits are lost.

An exercise, called "Tai Chi waist turner", which demonstrates that principle is practised as follows: one should stand with slightly bent knees, and with hands at the sides and limbs relaxed. In this position one should begin twisting the waist back and forth in a circular manner such that the centrifugal force of the twisting causes the arms to flail outward. This movement contains great power but is totally effortless; the whole body goes with it, the body weight shifting from side to side. In this exercise the centre of gravity must remain at or near a constant height above the ground. This seemingly simple movement has many benefits: it helps to realign the vertebrae, particularly in the lumbar region; it massages the internal organs that lead to improved circulation, better digestion, and increase Chi and essence; it also proliferates the flow of blood and urine through the kidneys. Twisting also helps reduce unwanted fat on the waist and targets the "obliques" - an area that can accumulate excess fat. Centrifugal and centripetal waist power is also used when one raises the foot and stretches out, resembling a kick. It is the same principle as the "Tai Chi waist turner" technique with the arms; the waist and belly turn back and forth and the legs are thrown out and back. So, when one kicks, first the body moves, then the foot. It is the same when one executes a hand technique: first the body moves, then the hand. One should go through the whole Tai Chi form very slowly to develop centrifugal and centripetal waist power, and move the waist half a second before the rest of the body moves. With much practice this would unify the movements; the feet, waist and hands appear to move at the same time.

[Steve James]

Care to share your understanding of what Pung/Peng Jin is, how or what makes or causes it to be formed, and how it's used.

I wouldn't dare.

[windwalker]

Care to share your understanding of what Pung/Peng Jin is, how or what makes or causes it to be formed, and how it's used.

I wouldn't dare.

haha thanks

completely understand.
Having said that it makes it a little hard to understand a view point with out
a reference to understand where it comes from.
Not that one has to agree it or not..

[Steve James]

Well, my only concern was clarifying the difference between centripetal and centrifugal "force."

Some people confuse centrifugal force with its counterpart, centripetal force, because they are so closely related. One might say they are two sides of the same coin. Centripetal force is defined as, “The component of force acting on a body in curvilinear motion that is directed toward the center of curvature or axis of rotation,” while centrifugal force is defined as, “The apparent force, equal and opposite to the centripetal force, drawing a rotating body away from the center of rotation, caused by the inertia of the body,” according to the American Heritage Dictionary.

Note that while centripetal force is an actual force, centrifugal force is defined as an apparent force. In other words, when twirling a mass on a string, the string exerts an inward centripetal force on the mass, while mass appears to exert an outward force on the string.

“The difference between centripetal and centrifugal force has to do with different ‘frames of reference,’ that is, different viewpoints from which you measure something,” according to Andrew A. Ganse, a research physicist at the University of Washington. If you are observing a rotating system from the outside, you see an inward centripetal force acting to constrain the rotating body to a circular path. However, if you are part of the rotating system, you experience an apparent centrifugal force pushing you away from the center of the circle, even though what you are actually feeling is the inward centripetal force that is keeping you from literally going off on a tangent.

This apparent outward force is described by Newton’s Laws of Motion. Newton’s First Law states that “A body at rest will remain at rest, and a body in motion will remain in motion unless it is acted upon by an external force.” If a massive body is moving through space in a straight line, its inertia will cause it to continue in a straight line unless an outside force causes it to speed up, slow down or change direction. In order for it to follow a circular path without changing speed, a continuous centripetal force must be continuously applied at a right angle to its path. The radius r of this circle is equal to the mass m times the square of the velocity v divided by the centripetal force F, or r = mv2/F. The force can be calculated by simply rearranging the equation, F= mv2/r.

In other words, centrifugal force is what appears to make a rotating object fly away from the center of rotation. The "real" force, however, is the one holding the rotating object in. Of course, for practical (martial) purposes, the distinction is irrelevant. It feels like a force to the object between rotated.
https://www.livescience.com/52488-centr ... orces.html

[Trick]

Reading these theories on centrifugal stuff get me dizzy, so my mind went into strange thoughts, does this “force” get greater the closer to the equator? and then also will the centripetal or gravity pull be greater there? If this is so does this pull/throw out force affect people differently depending where on the globe they live...Where on earth would be the best place to practice TJQ, would an equatorial player be stronger in sinking the Qi than an antarctian?

[Steve James]

Ha, you're trying to be funny. But, fwiw, this was a second year physics quiz question. Now, the question of whether it would affect your Qi, I dunno.
http://science.answers.com/Q/Is_the_gra ... he_equator

[Trick]

Well there we go, I was not all mind spinning woo-woo on that one, thanks for the link. And it almost also gives the flat-earthers some credit to when “pancake shape” is mentioned .....For the Bagua guys that don’t have too much daily time to put aside for practice, at the absolute pole locations just one roundabout walk and you stepped through all the time zones, 24 hours in a minute ....if walking slow.

[Trick]

Galilean Canon was mentioned.....Once a “Taiji punch” was demonstrated on me. Teacher said he he’ll go easy on me. His fist about one inch if not closer to my upper stomach , the strike did not made me stumble or even take a small step back, did not feel any pain on or in my stomach but pain came in my spine directly opposite to where I was struck on the stomach......the pain lasted for about a week.

[Bao]

Don’t think that this model can explain that kind of punching. The interesting aspect is about how mass transfers into velocity or momentum or how to use terms of physics. If you receive a push or someone is trying to go in for a throw or a takedown, you can reverse his momentum by absorbing/re-directing and return the force back. If you receive an incoming force you add to his momentum by your own mass. This is where whole body movement comes into play. If you only use strength and arm force, the effect won’t be there. So you need incoming momentum and you need to get your whole mass behind the movement when you return the incoming force. If you just stand there and receive a punch, there is no incoming force and nothing to return. So the cannon model does not really fit into that kind of scenario.

[Trick]

Just saying that it seemed his light strike(incoming steel ball) at my stomach went trough my body and where the force where to go out was my spine(the last steel ball).. It was no sparring situation, he just wanted me to get a light feel of a(his) Taiji-punch.....Many years ago now, today I might have observed and taken it differently.