the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htAE5zB4-Zg



Comment from poster was that if the boxer went full strength the bagua master would have been knocked out

kinda sad....lets hope the teacher never encounters a real boxer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDYGFsf6oLg

The teacher seems to feel he has the time to react
that the person he is working with is giving him.....

this is what usually happens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnIQyt4PKVs

Certainly not the worst Bagua app clip I've seen. He has decent mobility and some good moves, and I think it's fair to say what he has shown is better than those demos where the teacher applies techniques on an oppoenent who stands still with an arm out.

I think that is Ma Lincheng (Cheng bagua)?

Agree with C.J.W. - but it might be difficult to parry/trap boxing punches like that.

CJW -
Exactly - the arm out is the method of defeat in the infamous tai chi fights as well as again
in the first clip put up by Windwalker.

The thing about the OP clip is what we all know - if there was a real strike it causes a quick
brain reboot and in that instant you get hit again. This Pa Kua style of using mainly strikes seems
to be a fail - Pa Kua is better suited for throws. Guas 5 and 6 and 8. IMO

Personally, I think it's hard to draw the line between striking and grappling (throwing) in Bagua. In my line of Bagua, just about every application is a blend of both. (Ideally, elements of kicking and locking should also be included in every technique in order to complete the 4 skills of TCMA.) So instead of looking at this as a dichotomy (i.e., striking OR throwing), I prefer to think of it as being on a spectrum, with each technique containing varying degrees of both.

For instance, when I step forward and throw a piercing palm to the opponent's eyes, it is simply a strike. But if I step on or behind his foot to trap or trip him as I strike, he may fall down, turning the strike into a strike-throw.

On the other hand, if I've gotten a hold of the opponent in preparation for a common O-soto-gari type foot-sweep, I may elbow strike him in the chest or the temple as my leg sweeps backward to execute the throw. Since the intention here is more about throwing, I'd call this a throw-strike.

Bagua is a principle-based system that can be expressed in any number of ways to one's own liking and aptitude. This "compatibility" is what drew accomplished martial artists from other styles to become Dong Haichuan's disciples in order to learn his art, as they could incorporate what they'd already practiced into Bagua to create more effective versions of their original styles with enhanced power and mobility. It's also why today we see so many variations in Bagua when it comes to forms and applications.

C.J.W. wrote:Bagua is a principle-based system that can be expressed in any number of ways to one's own liking and aptitude. This "compatibility" is what drew accomplished martial artists from other styles to become Dong Haichuan's disciples in order to learn his art, as they could incorporate what they'd already practiced into Bagua to create more effective versions of their original styles with enhanced power and mobility. It's also why today we see so many variations in Bagua when it comes to forms and applications.

care to post any clips of it in use showing it to be effective as shown
by the many demos of forms and applications of it?

edited: for clarity


I like this teachers work, it reminds me of white crane/hop gar
He talks in a way that makes sense and has the ring of experience behind it.

Don't know if what he does would be considered as an example of what might be called
classical bagaua

Notice he talks about foot work, parrying and angles

"finish the fight with out parrying"

exactly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM

C.J.W. wrote:Certainly not the worst Bagua app clip I've seen. He has decent mobility and some good moves, and I think it's fair to say what he has shown is better than those demos where the teacher applies techniques on an oppoenent who stands still with an arm out.

I don't in that, the opponent "stands still with an arm out" at :43, :47, :50, :53, etc. The video starts with a boxer shadowboxing with retracted punches, then contradicts itself by demonstrating moves with the boxer standing still and leaving his "arm out."

This other video on that channel, starting at 2:00 minutes, is more realistic in that it doesn't depend as much on leaving an arm out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq6cLiluppI&t=2m0s

windwalker wrote:edited: for clarity


I like this teachers work, it reminds me of white crane/hop gar
He talks in a way that makes sense and has the ring of experience behind it.

Don't know if what he does would be considered as an example of what might be called
classical bagaua

Notice he talks about foot work, parrying and angles

"finish the fight with out parrying"

exactly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM

At 3:51, “It is different from modern combat arts, which passively waits for the opponents to strike." This is false. Most combat arts use different timings and angles (as shown).

At 4:01 if this "bagua weaving" is higher level stuff, then other combat arts may be even higher. Because, he could have just punched the opponent in one move, rather than after two.

Here Mayweather sets up ("strategizes" not "passively waits") Hatton with “inverse stepping … spiraling, neutralizing and moving in an arc and along the interception line” without "parrying head on" then, "strikes and intercepts the opponent with one move while mobile stepping before the opponent has managed to complete his move" against a real, non-compliant boxer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D07BhmI-d1g

This is false. Most combat arts use different timings and angles (as shown).

Are you saying his experience doesn't count which he is speaking from?
Is it false because you dont agree with it?..

You might want to check out his back ground...
He gave his rational based on his experience and training....

I like his work, and agree with many of his observations.

Boxers do not have to contend with a lot of things that those who teach MA do.
I mention boxers, having used hop gar against those that said they boxed
a long time ago. To make it fair I would agree not to kick them....

Boxing is the standard I use to view things from a striking point of view.
Kicking is another matter....something that boxers do not have to contend with.

No comments on the OP clip?

C.J.W. wrote:Personally, I think it's hard to draw the line between striking and grappling (throwing) in Bagua. In my line of Bagua, just about every application is a blend of both. (Ideally, elements of kicking and locking should also be included in every technique in order to complete the 4 skills of TCMA.) So instead of looking at this as a dichotomy (i.e., striking OR throwing), I prefer to think of it as being on a spectrum, with each technique containing varying degrees of both.

For instance, when I step forward and throw a piercing palm to the opponent's eyes, it is simply a strike. But if I step on or behind his foot to trap or trip him as I strike, he may fall down, turning the strike into a strike-throw.

On the other hand, if I've gotten a hold of the opponent in preparation for a common O-soto-gari type foot-sweep, I may elbow strike him in the chest or the temple as my leg sweeps backward to execute the throw. Since the intention here is more about throwing, I'd call this a throw-strike.

Bagua is a principle-based system that can be expressed in any number of ways to one's own liking and aptitude. This "compatibility" is what drew accomplished martial artists from other styles to become Dong Haichuan's disciples in order to learn his art, as they could incorporate what they'd already practiced into Bagua to create more effective versions of their original styles with enhanced power and mobility. It's also why today we see so many variations in Bagua when it comes to forms and applications.

I appreciate your explanations. I believe some of those bagua techniques do work. However, the video fell short of it's intro. But I agree, it may be better than others.

Here is a throw (although not bagua) that worked in a karate tournament setting against a non-compliant opponent. So, there is no guessing whether the timing and set up works. One might substitute a bagua throw, but use Machida's timing and set up:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=libp-yH_1WU

windwalker wrote:

This is false. Most combat arts use different timings and angles (as shown).

Are you saying his experience doesn't count which he is speaking from?
Is it false because you dont agree with it?..

You might want to check out his back ground...
He gave his rational based on his experience and training....

I like his work, and agree with many of his observations.

If you do not believe that most combat arts use timing and angles, you're welcome to explain why. What Guo states doesn't change the facts.

windwalker wrote:Boxers do not have to contend with a lot of things that those who teach MA do.
I mention boxers, having used hop gar against those that said they boxed
a long time ago. To make it fair I would agree not to kick them....

Boxing is the standard I use to view things from a striking point of view.
Kicking is another matter....something that boxers do not have to contend with.

If you don't agree with the description of what Mayweather is doing in the video, you're welcome to give your description.

windwalker wrote:No comments on the OP clip?

I did.

At 3:51, “It is different from modern combat arts, which passively waits for the opponents to strike."
based on his experience


This is false. Most combat arts use different timings and angles (as shown).
based on yours

I like his work....understand what he's trying to express thats been translated.
Agree with much of what he's said based on my experience.

marvin8 wrote:If you do not believe that most combat arts use timing and angles, you're welcome to explain why.

windwalker wrote:

marvin8 wrote:At 3:51, “It is different from modern combat arts, which passively waits for the opponents to strike."
based on his experience


This is false. Most combat arts use different timings and angles (as shown).
based on yours

I like his work....understand what he's trying to express thats been translated.
Agree with much of what he's said based on my experience.

"Based on your experience" which combat arts do not use angles?

marvin8 wrote:"Based on your experience" which combat arts do not use angles?

Can you show where I posted that.