Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:05 am

Trick wrote:In a previous post you write SLT removed aspects from the original Wu taijiquan “pulling the spine out of the form”. That sound as he took away an quite important aspect of the original teaching, that of course must be filled with something else but similar, otherwise it’s an empty shell ? You go on writing Sun’s Taijiquan is an complete art”stand on its own legs”, but then continue with its merely an Qigong exercise “he had no combat in mind when creating it”. ...Now I would believe his Taiji has combat applications.


Of course applications are there. The Wu/Hao form has martial applications. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about soul. What SLT changed was the frame, the whole body method. The Wu/Hao form is based on a very precise use of angles and structure (probably very much the same as in the old Chen small frame which the old Wu is based on. ). It is designed to teach the body where your angles and posture are as strongest as possible. Old Wu use a lot of coiling and spine movement, a body use that is sometimes more similar to Liuhebafa and some Bagua styles than compared to Yang or Chen Tai Chi. This spine and coiling is less visible in modern Hao, but you can compare the two Wu/Hao vids with different Sun style vids and I think you can see it by yourself. The body method in Sun style is vastly different even if the movements are pretty much the same....

But what you see today as Sun style Tai Chi is not exactly how SLT seems to have practiced his own form. If you look at picture on SLT performing his Sun style, in many postures he has a more dynamic, stretched and less relaxed look than compared to Sun Jianyun and this lineage. Especially if you see earlier pictures of SLT, you can see differences. His disciple I showed you, Wang Xikui, has also a different body use, a more "full" body use, more pumping from the Dantian and more spine movement. There is also a less known Tai Chi style, the Fu style that comes from Sun Lutang's student. The Fu style has a very clear, almost an over-exaggerated spine movement. So from where did this come? From SLT of course. He might have lost the interest of fighting, but he certainly learned and also at some time taught a Tai Chi style that is different from the Sun style that you normally see today. What we see today is the public Sun style, something he taught for health and not as a martial art.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:32 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:In a previous post you write SLT removed aspects from the original Wu taijiquan “pulling the spine out of the form”. That sound as he took away an quite important aspect of the original teaching, that of course must be filled with something else but similar, otherwise it’s an empty shell ? You go on writing Sun’s Taijiquan is an complete art”stand on its own legs”, but then continue with its merely an Qigong exercise “he had no combat in mind when creating it”. ...Now I would believe his Taiji has combat applications.


. I am talking about soul. What SLT changed was the frame, the whole body method. ith different The body method in Sun style is vastly different even if the movements are pretty much the same....

.

Yes and this lead us back to.- What is that “soul”/frame he put in to the form instead of that he put aside from original Taiji-“soul”/frame ? was it(probably was?)the “soul” he had previously mastered in practicing Xingyiquan/Baguazhang or something else ?...Or is it that he just put aside certain principles of the original Taijiquan form because he didn’t see them necessary for his health approach ?...Again I would point out my thought that on an (very)advanced level the “soul”/frame would probably not differ too much between XYQ, TJQ and BGZ and so on
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:54 am

Again I would point out my thought that on an (very)advanced level the ... frame would probably not differ too much between XYQ, TJQ and BGZ and so on.


I absolutely disagree. 110%. There are many different ways to activate, coordinate, align different parts of the body.

Just compare a good XYQ practitioner and a good BGZ practitioner, they move and use their resources very, very different. XY keeps the center straight, BG keeps the center always turning, twisting, changing. The quality of strength and power generation will differ very much through these two philosophies will become vastly different.

BTW, a strong foundations practice or the lack thereof can also affect the outcome of the body method very much.

If you play the piano well, it doesn't mean that you automatically can play the violin or the saxophone. These instruments mean very different use of the body that needs their own special training methods. It's the same with martial arts, they train the body differently.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:23 am

Yes, but here I’m hinting/theorizing toward how ones body(frame, body and mind)act/react upon touch in a let’s say self defence situation, or maybe an MMA style fight, or even a friendly push hand engagement. Note I’m talking about advanced level practitioners here. Unless you can point me toward advanced practitioners of TJQ, XYQ and BGZ and how they differently engage in above described situations.....Otherwise for beginners to intermediate basic practice methods differ more or less between the three, everyone here knows so.....And please not the musical instrument comparison thing again. In the body and mind arts we all dealing with the same instrument....the body (unless you comparing playing instrument with play MA weapons)I wrote that in another thread.....So back to SLT, did he bring on his XYQ/BGZ into “his” TJQ to replace the original Wu Taiji frame you said he got rid of?
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:32 am

Trick wrote:Unless you can point me toward advanced practitioners of TJQ, XYQ and BGZ and how they differently engage in above described situations.....


You can compare demos on the tubes. Do you think that Chen Xiaowang, Luo Dexiu, He Jinbao moves all the same?

And please not the musical instrument comparison thing again. In the body and mind arts we all dealing with the same instrument....the body (unless you comparing playing instrument with play MA weapons)


The analogy is absolutely fine. It's the same body, but you engage it differently and coordinate it differently when you work with music instruments, weapons and you can do the same when you punch, kick and throw. If you don't actively work on splits, you are not going to learn splits. You can't do it through standing in mabu. SImple as that. Those are two different use of the legs, splits need training. If you engage your punch with either hand, shoulder or foot will give a different quality of the punching strength. But you need to actively practice it. If you use your body one way for twenty years when you practice you will learn to use your body. 6H coordination, dantian rotation, use of the gua, coordinating the lower ribs, activating the scapula, there are so many different ways to use and coordinate different areas of the body. Some arts do like "this", some other arts do like "that". I cannot issue the type of power they do in Hunggar, although I know how they work with the body mechanics. I would need to practice the methods a long time before I could. I can't use the same kind of power they use in Jin Bagua, it demands a certain practice over long time. And Chen TJ or HG stylists would probably not know how to coordinate the lower ribs like in XYLH or how to activate the scapula as in old Wu (/Hao) Tai Chi, because these methods also need practice over time. So sorry pal, I don't buy that all high level practitioners use their instrument the same, because by time they have developed their bodies into very different instruments.

I wrote that in another thread.....So back to SLT, did he bring on his XYQ/BGZ into “his” TJQ to replace the original Wu Taiji frame you said he got rid of?


There is certainly an influence of SLTs own background. No one can erase their own history. But actively replace something? I've said no and I say no again.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:18 pm

I can't remember where I read it now but it was SLT talking about the smaller the frame the more twisting of silk you must use.
I thought that's what they are all missing.
A dirivative of sun style was my first tai chi form and at a later date I was exposed to Fu
Fu overexaturates the twisting but you can see it comes from sun.
So many people live off Suns name but don't carry his essence
This is stealing from the dead
The combat in Suns form is obvious the skill to use it is not
How much of Suns system do most people know and how deeply into it have they ventured
For most it is marketing ploy
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:08 pm

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Unless you can point me toward advanced practitioners of TJQ, XYQ and BGZ and how they differently engage in above described situations.....


You can compare demos on the tubes. Do you think that Chen Xiaowang, Luo Dexiu, He Jinbao moves all the same?
Yes for sure and of course obviously the three of them move differently when they’re practicing their chosen styles, no one arguing against that.


And please not the musical instrument comparison thing again. In the body and mind arts we all dealing with the same instrument....the body (unless you comparing playing instrument with play MA weapons)


The analogy is absolutely fine. It's the same body, but you engage it differently and coordinate it differently when you work with music instruments[/quote]Yes, but non of your practice partners or even opponents in the martial arts are dead instruments/objects, right ?
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:16 pm

Bao wrote:. But actively replace something? I've said no and I say no again.

But you say SLT actively removed the Taiji frame his teacher taught. So what was put there instead then ? Bao, I don’t know but it kinda seem that you want to come off as an Sun-Taijiquan authority, but as such you seem to have quite vague or non answers on simple questions
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:31 pm

Trick wrote:? Bao, I don’t know but it kinda seem that you want to come off as an Sun-Taijiquan authority, but as such you seem to have quite vague or non answers on simple questions


No I don’t and I am not. My interest lies in body movement, body methods and not in styles. If you don’t want to accept a simple answer I don’t know if I am interested trying to explain further. Either you see it or not. Wayne is better on explaining things briefly, he said something important. There are things missing as there are things missing in most Tai Chi today. What could be said about Sun could also be said about Yang or Chen.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:02 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:? Bao, I don’t know but it kinda seem that you want to come off as an Sun-Taijiquan authority, but as such you seem to have quite vague or non answers on simple questions


No I don’t and I am not. My interest lies in body movement, body methods and not in styles. If you don’t want to accept a simple answer I don’t know if I am interested trying to explain further. Either you see it or not. Wayne is better on explaining things briefly, he said something important. There are things missing as there are things missing in most Tai Chi today. What could be said about Sun could also be said about Yang or Chen.

But that’s the thing, getting no clear answers to questions about your claims. YOU said/claim that SLT got rid of the frame he was taught by his Taiji teacher. So one could see that as instead of emptying his own cup he emptied the Taijiquan cup that was given to him....So what did he refill that cup with ?.........Yes I agree, Wayne’s although brief posts contains clear information.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby GrahamB on Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:27 am

At this point anybody today who claims to know what Sun Lu Tang was thinking back in the early 20th century in China is talking out of their ass. And I'd include myself. It's just speculation.

The more you look into the histories of Chinese martial arts the more you realise we really don't understand the societal, religious, cultural, historical and political pressures of the times these people lived in. Martial arts were political in every sense. Some of the decisions people had to make were literally life and death. Starvation was a real possibility, you aligned with the wrong political group then you died, you didn't comply with the wishes of the ruling powers then things went badly for you, etc... people didn't have free choices and every choice came with a price.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:55 am

Trick wrote:. YOU said/claim that SLT got rid of the frame he was taught by his Taiji teacher. So one could see that as instead of emptying his own cup he emptied the Taijiquan cup that was given to him....So what did he refill that cup with ?.........Yes I agree, Wayne’s although brief posts contains clear information.


I know the body methods in the old Wu style, in the modern Hao and in what Sun Jianyun taught. I’ve studied all of these methods. I can only point out the differences. I have done that, I’ve mentioned lack of core strength, coiling, spinal movement and scapula. Wayne added silk pulling (which is something I see in Sun Jianyun’s performance and from the old guard.) I have also studied Sun XY and Sun Bagua as well as other Bagua styles. Many says that he mixed his tai chi with XY and BG. I can also only say from my personal experience, I see nothing from XYQ or BGZ in Sun TJQ.

Graham is correct, no one can go into LTS’s mind, so I can not say what he was thinking or what he tried to do. But you can still look at history, differences and there are plenty of writings from him as well as what his students has written about him. I know it sounds harsh and that many will become offended. But my personal opinion is that Sun TJQ as it’s performed nowadays is a watered down Wu TJQ. What has been taken away has not been replaced with anything. When I watch the old Wu vids, Ao Yangfeng or Wang Xikui I feel happy. When I watch the Tai Chi from Sun Jianyun‘s younger students and from them I feel sad (including when I look at my own Sun Tai Chi teachers). What I see is just watered down Tai Chi. SLT wrote that he wanted his arts to be spread in public to benefit the health of the people. There’s no point of trying to speculate more about his intentions than for what he wrote himself. Graham is also correct about the politics, something that Sun Jianyun was caught up in. I won’t speculate more about this or write about things I’ve heard. I can only say that I have only heard good things about Jianyun’s martial skills.

I don’t know what you want more or what you want me to answer. I can’t tell you about things that should be there but that I personally can not see. I won’t say this or that just because a bunch of other people say so. When I write something I will always say things from my own personal experience, about things I have studied and what I can see from my own personal perspective. I will never state something because it’s the politically correct thing to say or because some “masters” say so.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:32 am

Ok, thanks. And thank you for pointing out a few names of “old”Wu-Taijiquan practitioners, I will try to find them on the tubes and have a look.
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:57 am

I referred to the vids I’ve already linked to:

Old Wu style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nffsvMZiEak

Hao style, Ao Yangfeng:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvAFPD8x4E

Sun style, Wang Xikui
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuGupAIUds
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Re: Sun Taijiquan Fighting Techniques Volume 2

Postby Steve James on Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:19 am

I think the way Sun does "ban lan chui" (?) ("Step forward, deflect downward, parry, punch") is more of his style's signature than "open/close." In that it combines elements that some can see in bagua and xingyi. See at .30 seconds into the Wang Xikui video above. Jmo.
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