needle in cotton

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needle in cotton

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:42 pm

All CMA have aspects that cultivate and develop internal work within them....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5vBRUvBKEg
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby middleway on Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:24 am

Can you explain what internal work you are seeing in this performance? thanks.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:11 am

Another version of the same set.
There are many ways to express and cultivate what is called internal by some.
All CMA is internal, how its expressed and developed varies depending on style and teaching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qGSldBuj7A
This is an old film of Luk Chi Fu doing the Min Loy Jeun. Since it is film and time is an issue, he is playing this form rather fast because this is a slow internal set. Nontheless, The Late Grandmaster Chan Tai San told me when I showed him this film, that it is probably a good idea to play this set fast in practice to learn more about the practial aspects of this form.

The Min Loy Jeun or needle in cotton form is a metaphor for the idea of hard and soft (Gong, Yau) that is represented in Gung Fu. But it also is a version of plucking a rose and you get hurt by the thorn. Meaning the you can see the cotton but you can't see the needle inside. Luk Chi Fu 陸智夫, was a famous disciple of grandmaster Ng Siu Chung, and gung fu brother of Chan Hak Fu, Kwong Boon Fu and others. He opened his martial art school during his teen years in Guangzhou, later transferred to Hong Kong, he passed away a few years ago in Hong Kong.


The Late Grandmaster Chan Tai San told me when I showed him this film, that it is probably a good idea to play this set fast in practice to learn more about the practial aspects of this form.
A very practical view point. Often when I see taiji people practicing I will ask them if they can move fast with what they practice..most can not..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0xyBj1Nvu0

Mei Li Jin is the most advanced form of martial art in the Tibet White Crane (Baihepai or Pak Hok Pai) family. Only six levels are shown in here because the seven level is not for public.

Fei He Jian is sword performance within the Tibet White Crane family.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby middleway on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:39 am

Thanks, but to repeat my question ... What internal work are YOU seeing in these performances? honest question.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby jaime_g on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:53 am

I honestly cant see anything related to internal work on these videos
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:02 am

Honest answer it's internal.
Most of what you guys claim to see or think you see are movement dynamics. You can post any set or form by someone who claims to be internal for comparison.

There is a lot of breathwork and intent associated with the performance of the sets.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby middleway on Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:35 am

Honest answer it's internal.


Ok, lets try a different way to parse this out a little.

How do YOU define 'internal'?

thanks.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:56 am

I use TCM theory to define and outline what is thought to be happening.
This would be in line with most CMA old masters idea of internal work, the why, how and what.

All CMA are based on these cultural concepts.
It would be hard to find a style or practice that does not express or use them.

The way this is brought into play and what, is defined by style.

I've found most of the ideas and theories expressed can be
explained through physics.


an example of internal work at work
Image

Some thoughts on this from another thread that echo my own...what is mentioned by mike is also something I've experienced.

At the time, Mr. Long was mostly talking as I was coming in with my punch. He wasn’t paying much attention to me, and as a result, he deflected my punch by “slapping” my forearm away a bit too hard.

The “Burning Hand,” was Mr. Long’s signature technique, and he was quite open about teaching it those who wanted to learn it. It was an “internal” specialty, different from “external” pushing power. More a slap than a hit, Mr. Long would sometimes place a phone book on your shoulder and give it one of those “slaps.”

You could feel two things coming through the phone book. The first was a push (the external component) that would set you back a foot or two. That was to be expected, but it wasn’t anything to worry about. It was the second thing that was nasty... a sharp, stinging sensation that penetrated your shoulder.

This second force seemed to follow the more external, first force. It seemed to lag behind. But the external force was then gone in an instant, while the stinging second force stayed -- and grew.

Now, I am not a gullible person, and it was going to take more than a trickle of this second force through a phone book to convince me that this slapping stuff was anything much. And so it was that Mr. Long deflected my punch with a slap…just a little too hard. And as a result, my arm locked out in front of me, as if frozen, while a searing pain moved through the flexor muscle compartment of my forearm. My jaw clenched shut as I could feel beads of sweat forming on my face. Mr. Long continued to yack away at the other students, unaware of my predicament. I was struggling to breath, actually. I couldn’t move, actually. But out of the corner of my eye, I could see the other students now looking at me with some concern.

For his part, still talking to the group, Mr. Long began pulling back to strike again. He still wasn’t looking in my direction. I tried to retract my arm, but couldn’t move. Then finally, I managed to whimper something out… like “Aaaa!”

I know that sounds dramatic, but that’s what happened. And lucky for me, it was enough to get Mr. Long to stop talking and turn his head to see that I was in some serious hurt. I would not have been a happy camper had I been hit like that twice.

The next day I had a huge black and blue mark on my forearm, pretty much the size of his palm. But this was not a result of force #1. That kind of force would have maybe broken a bone, had he hit hard enough, or maybe it would have done nothing, if he hadn’t hit hard enough, but this was something from force #2. And call it whatever you like… call it qi, or burning hand, or whatever… it is something you need to personally experience in order to get the idea. And I got the idea. https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 7be1127b96



When people talk about not seeing something and then asking me what I see...it depends
We could talk about the movement itself. In doing so it could be approached from a number of different perspectives.

What might more productive is to look at similarities expressed and differences.

the needle cotton set is usually one of the last sets taught along with the theory
that makes it work...not something I learned, my own work a combination of some earlier "hop gar"
work combined with my research in taiji.

Answering my own questions now expressed in what I call
“Tsang-Lu” 蒼 鷺
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:46 am

windwalker wrote:There is a lot of breathwork and intent associated with the performance of the sets.


True. There's a lot of breath work and coordination of body, belly/Hara/Dantian, breath and sounds in this and a few related arts. Sometimes it can be very hard from outside to spot what is really going on. Some sets in these arts that are performed very relaxed and soft can sometimes still look "strong" for the person watching it. You really need to learn and try the principles by yourself to understand the internal work.

Though, even if a set is designed for internal work, they are most often done slightly different when performed in public. ;)
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby shawnsegler on Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:01 am

Like trying to capture a greased weasel. :)
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:37 pm

The needle in cotton set is about small circles and softness
The white crane internal is taught in a seperate set of noi gung
I learnt this set through two seperate lineages and this set is different to either one I Learnt
Last edited by wayne hansen on Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby GrahamB on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:53 am

This is an interesting discussion.

"External" Chinese Martial Arts develop a whole range of "qi" skills. For example - this video from the South Chinese Morning Post I just watched shows a lot of them - iron palm, spear to the throat, etc...

https://www.facebook.com/scmp/videos/32 ... _tn__=FC-R

However, as you can see - it's all mixed in with very physical things - like bull wrestling and gymnastics.

Are these skills "internal"?

In one way they are, since it involved qi conditioning - hard qigong. But this is definitely not the "internal" that is talked about in "internal martial arts". I don't believe that "Internal martial arts" have these hard qigoing methods. They come from elsewhere - Shaolin, etc.

So, it's a confusing subject. You can see how misunderstandings and confusion arise with the word "internal".
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:00 am

Never felt it was confusing.
I look at it as 2 methods using the same theories to achieve different ends.

As you mention there may ways of looking at it.

for those interested in needle in cotton...a student shared this site with me..

google translated , native speakers might be able to share more in depth thoughts

Baihepai
Soft-fist cotton wrapped needles
Cotton-studded needle technology, both the hand Buddha said soft. This kind of boxing method is to use meditation to adjust the body as a body, and to use the yin of the yin. The yin in the yin, the method of washing the marrow. The ancients have the rule of the tendons, and the marrow is washed. The method of washing the marrow is more precious, and the scholars who have passed the fascination have not received the teacher. The cotton-wrapped needle is one of the marrow-washing meridians, but still works as a transverse phase. Being able to cohere with each other can only unite the yin of the sin in the shade, thinking that the god is a physical and chemical machine, and that the effect of heaven and man is one. The method of cotton wrapped needles is finalized.
http://www.baihepai.com/soft-form/mian- ... %E8%AD%9C/
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:54 am

Found an old quote by Kenneth Fish, over ten years ago:

"I dare say that an awful lot of Taiji teachers haven't a clue to the internal, whereas most white Crane teachers I've met do."

8-)
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Re: needle in cotton

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:57 pm

I'm pretty sure he is not talking about the form of white crane shown
I think you might find he is talking about Fukien white crane
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