How you react

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Re: How you react

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:28 am

Sorry - I stopped reading your posts a while ago ;) Bao wins ;D
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:34 am

GrahamB wrote:Interesting that everybody wants to share their deep knowledge....but nobody wants to answer the question I asked. :D

I would loved to gotten a hands on experience with Shioda, but I’m afraid it’s impossible 8-)
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Re: How you react

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:47 am

It sure is, but Shioda isn't in the video clip I posted...
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:36 pm

GrahamB wrote:Interesting that everybody wants to share their deep knowledge....but nobody wants to answer the question I asked. :D

. . . Sorry - I stopped reading your posts a while ago ;) Bao wins ;D

Did you stop reading others' posts (middleway, Dmitri, cloudz, Subitai, and Giles), too? :)
As mentioned, the majority of attendees in a paid workshop react (or comply) to a master's demonstration out of respect for the master and not wanting to be ostracized.

If you are asking what would be a honest reaction disregarding any consequences, one can not say until they felt Sam's or Roy's touch. Even if the opponent gave an honest reaction in the OP demo video, it does not mean the method works against a moving, resistant opponent. For that reason, I posted ILC competition videos (sanda, push hands). ILC lists their instructors/students accomplishments in sanda and push hands competitions on their website. In competition, a moving, resistant opponent reacts honestly (or doesn't react) to win the match.

Gringorn wrote:Marvin8, you wrote:
"Does anyone have a video of any of Sam's instructors/students perform his method against a moving, resistant opponent?

I do not see these instructors/students performing ILC's control at point of contact, unbalancing, etc:"

Kickboxing with gloves and rules looks like kickboxing with gloves and rules.

Not always. Some fighters (e.g., muay thai, boxing) control their opponent with trapping.

Gringorn wrote:As to the videos you posted,Sanda Volgoda is poster who has it in for ILC Russia for some reason and only posts videos, often edited, of ILC people, one person in particular, loosing fights. No video of fights where they/he wins, only losses. It is an attempt to defame ILC.

As to the original post - none of Sam Chin's students (re)act this way. Uke sickness.

Here are a couple more push hands (no gloves) videos of Araslanov Andrey and Daria Segreeva (instructor) from ILIQ CHUAN, not from Sanda Volgoda. I still do not see control through the "pivot point" to the extent shown in the OP:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smO_VBdIROI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pDzE3ZMya0

C.J.W. wrote:Think of energy training as push-ups -- conditioning exercises designed to train and build the body in certain ways to develop physical attributes that are useful and applicable in fighting.

Push-ups are a physical conditioning training. Push-ups are not a technical skill: not a technique used in fighting.

C.J.W. wrote:To say this type of energy training is laughable because they would never work on a resisting opponent is like arguing that doing push-ups are useless for fighting since you can't hurt someone by doing push-ups on them as they are down on the ground. ;)

Sam is demonstrating a technical skill "training:" a technique to control opponents through the pivot point, which should work in a demo as well as against a resisting opponent (e.g., in push hands competitions):
marvin8 wrote:
Georges St Pierre wrote:1. Physical: "physical shape, conditioning, vo2 max, athleticism"
2. Technical: "If you know for example do an arm bar, kicks, punches, counters, chokes, triangles, leg locks, etc." "Your knowledge: do you know an arm bar, defense to a triangle choke, or how to counter a jab. Technical aspect in terms of knowledge of fighting.
3. Tactical: "That's where you make the difference between between the champion and the average competitor." “I will know where I can take you out of your comfort zone. And, I can bring the fight where I am the strongest. And, fight you to eliminate the odds where the fight will stack the odds of me winning to my advantage. “
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:29 pm

I asked, "Now answer this honestly - if you were that student, would you react in this way?"

Most people then started a debate about the merits of Aikido reactions (which isn't an art shown in the video)...

It's kind of a politician's answer. It's a yes or no question.

I don't mind though - people can write whatever they want - it's all good.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:35 am

Nswer honestly? You want us to speculate
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Re: How you react

Postby GrahamB on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:50 am

I want you to speculate? No. I require a blood oath. Like the one Snape did in Harry Potter. The unbreakable vow.



Swear to me in front of the whole board right now that you will never act like that. Or face the consequences...
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Re: How you react

Postby Dmitri on Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:07 am

GrahamB wrote:I asked, "Now answer this honestly - if you were that student, would you react in this way?"

Most people then started a debate about the merits of Aikido reactions (which isn't an art shown in the video)...

It isn't? I must have missed something. What art is it? Daito Riu?

It's kind of a politician's answer. It's a yes or no question.

I don't mind though - people can write whatever they want - it's all good.

Very strong, the confirmation bias with your question was, young Jedi!
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:05 am

GrahamB wrote:I asked, "Now answer this honestly - if you were that student, would you react in this way?"
.


Just a short anecdote in reply:

I was training at one of Sam Chin's regular workshop classes, last fall, and he wanted to demonstrate a principle on a student. He asked me to come grab his forearms, so I walked forward and, without using any internal structure (i.e. I just used regular balanced posture, the way a typical person would), grabbed his forearms. As soon as i grabbed, I was popped back through the air a couple of feet. There was an audible gasp from the other attendees, nearly all of whom were new to the art.

Then, I "turned on" my structure and grabbed again. Nothing happened, I was properly grounded, and Sifu Chin was able to proceed with his demonstration and instruction.

I was not tanking, nor was I "brainwashed." His body had been "already there," meaning his six-directional, spherical force was being generated from his internal processes. But I was not "already there" when I touched with him, and so could not match what he was producing. Even though his power and skill level are far beyond my own, I should still have been able to provide him with a structured body to work with, not an "average joe on the street" body that would not be able to withstand him even when he was doing nothing but maintaining his basic neutral state.
Last edited by Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:42 am

Hmmm, not good. That story don’t make the “internal power” thing believable. First you grab as a typical person” would do !? And then.........Sorry that don’t hold at all, I mean playing role game.
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Re: How you react

Postby charles on Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:39 am

Interloper wrote:... I should still have been able to provide him with a structured body to work with, not an "average joe on the street" body that would not be able to withstand him even when he was doing nothing but maintaining his basic neutral state.


But, isn't that the point of the art, to start by "breaking" the opponent's structure? Either he can break that structure or not. If he's good, he can do so immediately upon touching. If you are better than him, you respond to what he is doing by changing what your structure is doing so that he can't break it.
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:57 pm

charles wrote:
Interloper wrote:... I should still have been able to provide him with a structured body to work with, not an "average joe on the street" body that would not be able to withstand him even when he was doing nothing but maintaining his basic neutral state.


But, isn't that the point of the art, to start by "breaking" the opponent's structure? Either he can break that structure or not. If he's good, he can do so immediately upon touching. If you are better than him, you respond to what he is doing by changing what your structure is doing so that he can't break it.


Fair point, Charles, but that wasn't the point of the moment. He was teaching a seminar and needed to demonstrate a concept, and a student to assist in the illustration. Because he always maintains his balanced, neutral state when he is about to make contact with a demo partner, he had some 6-directional energy going, but did not intend to produce enough for it to blow away his partner... that wasn't the purpose of the point he was about to demonstrate' it was only his natural state in a teaching environment. Because he knew I have some structure, he probably expected me to meet and match the baseline energy he was producing, but I didn't, that first time.

When we train, once we have learned something and have gone through the rote process of repetition to get familiar with it, we are then expected to provide a degree of resistance for each other so it will force us to "up our game" in terms of awareness and internal movement to meet and match in the moment. So, with a training partner it is always expected that they aren't going to use an unstructured body - it is not conducive to us increasing our skills.

But in a demonstration by a teacher to a group of students learning a concept, why would you challenge the teacher and try to make it hard for him to demonstrate? That is not the point of the moment. So, we provide some "honest energy" for him to work with, and are not going to tank for him. But we aren't going to challenge him, either.
Last edited by Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:24 pm

Indeed, it sounds as though some people's "internal" training is coming along nicely.
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:24 pm

Trick wrote:Hmmm, not good. That story don’t make the “internal power” thing believable. First you grab as a typical person” would do !? And then.........Sorry that don’t hold at all, I mean playing role game.


Trick, you don't seem to understand the nature of "internal structure," or the process of creating and maintaining it under duress. It's at the foundation of all internal arts. That's what Chen-style taiji people, and others, spend so much time "standing." They are not just hanging out, they are working hard to made connections inside their bodies -- muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia -- and unifying their structure from "crown to ground." Once they have that, then they must work on being able to manipulate those internal tissues to change and adapt to hold that structure even when being pushed, pulled, struck, etc. There is no role game going on, only the effort of maintaining a neutral state under physical duress.
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:51 am

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:Hmmm, not good. That story don’t make the “internal power” thing believable. First you grab as a typical person” would do !? And then.........Sorry that don’t hold at all, I mean playing role game.


Trick, you don't seem to understand the nature of "internal structure," or the process of creating and maintaining it under duress. It's at the foundation of all internal arts. That's what Chen-style taiji people, and others, spend so much time "standing." They are not just hanging out, they are working hard to made connections inside their bodies -- muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia -- and unifying their structure from "crown to ground." Once they have that, then they must work on being able to manipulate those internal tissues to change and adapt to hold that structure even when being pushed, pulled, struck, etc. There is no role game going on, only the effort of maintaining a neutral state under physical duress.

I’ve been practicing MA’s since i was six years old now I’m 52. Done fencing to jujutsu,then Karate and some Aikido, and then CMA’s. I’ve trained in Japan/Okinawa and for the last (almost)fourteen years i lived and trained in China. As a kid I was the thinner weaker one and seemingly always had to face stronger older guys(kind of still like this on the stronger part) I have everything from just touched hand to sparred, never once have I been made to jump up or fly back in the air by a mere touch...maybe I’ve already have my six directional power naturally in place my body ? But I do have felt some interesting things but nothing miraculous . As for the CMA’s i study/ied they are TJQ, YiQuan/XYQ and Tongbeiquan, I’ve done a lot of so called standing practice so I know what that is about........But back to yours seminar story there where New students in the seminar, in other word peoples who didn’t need to act as “typical person”...those where the guys who should have a first hand feel. But instead an experienced(you) student was used for the demonstration(a simple arm grab),one who could play along, switching mood of “typical person” to a masterful one. There’s a big risk here that the new students observing this kind of play might begin to play games too and not being natural about it.
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