How you react

[marvin8]

We have what is called "kuzushi on contact," meaning to instantaneously control the opponent's center of mass on contact. This can be a knockout (due to using a pulse that shocks the nervous system), or used to numb a limb, or simply to off-balance the person and set them up for a takedown, throw, etc. It is effortless when your are making 6-directional energy, because all you then have to do is direct it to the specific place you want it to go, for the desired effect.

If it was possible to knock people who aren't conditioned to act like Lemmings unconscious from a mere touch of the arm, which you seem to be implying, then I'm pretty sure an MMA fight would look very different than it does.

"all you have to do is" - yeah, right!

...if you can knock someone down by just touching their arm, that’s pretty skillful especially in a free moving non compliant engagement.

. . . then an ILC "fight would look very different," also.

One would assume the certified instructors of ILC possess the skill of "kuzushi on contact" with "6-directional energy." Out of the ILC fights that I posted of Araslanov Andrey, Daria Sergeeva (teacher/coach who began studying ILC in 2004 under Alex Skalozub) and Alex Skalozub (teacher/coach), can you (especially Interloper or Gringorn) timestamp where these certified instructors or students are using "kuzushi on contact?"

Excerpt from "ILC Russian Students Outstanding Performance – Feb 2018," https://iliqchuan.com/wiki/ilc-russian- ... -feb-2018/:

2) 17 feb 2018 Iliqchuan team (26 students) participated in Moscow Kung-Fu Championship in taolu taichi form with 21 iliqchuan form, in taolu fast forms with butterfly form, then butterfly form with butterfly knifes (children), push hands and da- dzen (fighting on the soft swords, children). The first time children showed butterfly form bare hand in competition.

The results: 16 gold,11 silver, 11 bronze. The team was consisit from Moscow and Saint-Petersburg students from 4 ILC coaches: Alex Skalozub (sportclub KANON), Daria Sergeeva (sportclub KANON and sportclub TENGU), Marina Gubnitskaya (sportclub KOKON) and Daniil Novikov (sportclub PODNEBESNAYA). The Iliqchuan team also got special Cup and Diploma for group demonstration of 21 ILC form (5 people).

The results of ILC Team:

Coach Alex Skalozub, sportclub KANON, adults:

– Araslanov Andrey – gold in push hands, gold in fast forms, gold in taichi form
– Kulikov Sergey – gold in push hands, bronze in fast forms, bronze in taichi form
– Malakhova Tatiana – silver in push hands, silver in fast forms, bronze in taichi form
-Orlova Dina – gold in taichi form, silver in push hands

Coach Daria Sergeeva, sportclub KANON, children 13-15 years old:

– Arkhipov Egor – gold in push hands, gold in da-dzen, silver in fast form with pare weapon
– Zverev Ilya – gold in push hands, gold in da-dzen, bronze in fast form with pare weapon
– Bogdanov Egor – gold in push hands
– Markachev Artem – gold in push hands
– Savosin Fedor – gold in push hands
– Badaev Ivan – silver in push hands, bronze in da-dzen,
– Malakhov Svytoslav – silver in push hands
-Zdetovetskaya Yulia – bronze in push hands
-Orlova Vlada – bronze in push hands
Coach Daria Sergeeva, sportclub TENGU, adults:

-Zadernovskaya Tatiana – gold in push hands, gold in fast forms, gold in taichi form
-Zakharov Alexey – silver in push hands
– Regentov Vasiliy – bronze in push hands
Coach Marina Gubnitskaya, sportclub KOKON, adults:

– Strashnenko Ilia – gold in push hands
– Murakhovskiy Eduard – silver in push hands
-Shabardin Ruslan – silver in taichi form
– Tyulkin Anton – bronze in push hands
– Sizyaev Sergey – bronze in fast forms, bronze in taichi form
Coach Daniil Novik, cportclub PODNEBESNAYA:

– Novik Daniil -silver in push hands, silver in fast forms, bronze in taichi form

[GrahamB]

I don't get this obsession wth attacking ILC?

But anyway...If we stop dropping buzzwords like kuzushi, six direction force, and 'on contact' we can realise that good wrestlers have these skills and frankly they're better at actually applying them in combat situations.

Kabib is a master of six directional energy

[Interloper]

IMO, a lot of the ZXD ILC that you see does not overtly show "kuzushi on contact," because practitioners in tournaments tend to meet and match their opponent's energy first, feel an opening (with listening skills) and then exploit it. It's a highly tactile art. You will see more "kuzushi on contact" overtly in an art like the aikijujutsu system I study, Hontai Hakkei Ryu.
Both arts have both the subtle "meeting, matching, listening" tactic and the "kuzushi on contact" tactic, but they use them in different ways.

ZXD ILC approach (observe the shock effect in the strikes and deflections)


HHR-AJJ approach (observe the "shock wave" reaction of the training partner on contact, as well as the way the body is directed in, out, up and/or downward)

[marvin8]

IMO, a lot of the ZXD ILC that you see does not overtly show "kuzushi on contact," because practitioners in tournaments tend to meet and match their opponent's energy first, feel an opening (with listening skills) and then exploit it. It's a highly tactile art.

So, you agree that the posted ILC fight videos do "not show 'kuzushi on contact.'" Nor do you have videos showing "kuzushi on contact," other than demo videos.

With your explanation, you can say just about any fighter has that skill, even if he/she does not:

Kabib is a master of six directional energy

[Interloper]

IMO, a lot of the ZXD ILC that you see does not overtly show "kuzushi on contact," because practitioners in tournaments tend to meet and match their opponent's energy first, feel an opening (with listening skills) and then exploit it. It's a highly tactile art.

So, you agree that the posted ILC fight videos do "not show 'kuzushi on contact.'" Nor do you have videos showing "kuzushi on contact," other than demo videos.

I said that ZXD ILC practitioners don't -overtly- show kuzushi on contact, at least not in a tournament/competition setting, because the tactical approach is to meet and match the opponent, first, not to just crank the "peng" energy and pop him away. I have felt kuzushi-on-contact from senior-level ZXD-ILC practitioners. In a combative situation, I believe you would see something quite different than in a push-hands competition, where it's more like a chess game in motion. Furthermore, learning how to maintain the internal qualities in motion and in combat take years of training and experience. The training for an "internal" body is a separate discipline than that for fighting.

Doesn't it strike you as interesting, though, that so many of the ZXD ILC students won medals. There were a lot of golds and silvers in that long list...

But the key point is this: Different practitioners have differing levels of internal skills, so to judge an entire art by some students at a tournament is not going to give you an accurate picture. Best to go feel for yourself, hands-on, with more senior practitioners, and especially the direct students and disciples of the grandmaster.

With your explanation, you can say just about any fighter has that skill, even if he/she does not

No, that is not accurate. You have to understand the underlying body qualities, which are not always evident to the untrained eye.

[Interloper]

You don't understand what is being discussed, so of course it sounds like BS. That's okay. No one needs to convince you.

We have what is called "kuzushi on contact," meaning to instantaneously control the opponent's center of mass on contact. This can be a knockout (due to using a pulse that shocks the nervous system), or used to numb a limb, or simply to off-balance the person and set them up for a takedown, throw, etc. It is effortless when your are making 6-directional energy, because all you then have to do is direct it to the specific place you want it to go, for the desired effect.

If it was possible to knock people who aren't conditioned to act like Lemmings unconscious from a mere touch of the arm, which you seem to be implying, then I'm pretty sure an MMA fight would look very different than it does.

"all you have to do is" - yeah, right!

I would highly recommend Stephan Kesting's Strenuous Life podcast for those needing a large dose of reality in their training. The most recent episode where he interviews Rob the owner of McDojoLife is very good:

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/stepha ... io-podcast

[GrahamB]

You don't understand what is being discussed, so of course it sounds like BS. That's okay. No one needs to convince you.

That's cult-like thinking.

You're the one making extraordinary claims.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagan_standard

"An extraordinary claim is one which is not supported by the available, or ordinary, evidence. Support for such a claim must therefore come from newly observed evidence, or a new recognition of existing evidence, which is extraordinary."

[Trick]

You don't understand what is being discussed, so of course it sounds like BS. That's okay. No one needs to convince you.

We have what is called "kuzushi on contact," meaning to instantaneously control the opponent's center of mass on contact. This can be a knockout (due to using a pulse that shocks the nervous system), or used to numb a limb, or simply to off-balance the person and set them up for a takedown, throw, etc. It is effortless when your are making 6-directional energy, because all you then have to do is direct it to the specific place you want it to go, for the desired effect.

If it was possible to knock people who aren't conditioned to act like Lemmings unconscious from a mere touch of the arm, which you seem to be implying, then I'm pretty sure an MMA fight would look very different than it does.

"all you have to do is" - yeah, right!

I would highly recommend Stephan Kesting's Strenuous Life podcast for those needing a large dose of reality in their training. The most recent episode where he interviews Rob the owner of McDojoLife is very good:

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/stepha ... io-podcast

Does your understanding of kuzushi comes from your self being able to apply it practical in a non compliant situation, on an of equal or even larger size opponent ? Or your understanding comes in the form of in the Dojo, grab my arm, no the other one situation?.....Yours explanation on this matters continue to sound as you are saying that with an “internally” lined up body meeting and dealing with “non internal” force head on is the thing to do ?

[Interloper]

You don't understand what is being discussed, so of course it sounds like BS. That's okay. No one needs to convince you.

That's cult-like thinking.

You're the one making extraordinary claims.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagan_standard

"An extraordinary claim is one which is not supported by the available, or ordinary, evidence. Support for such a claim must therefore come from newly observed evidence, or a new recognition of existing evidence, which is extraordinary."

Lol. Given that I study two totally different internal martial arts -- one Chinese, one Japanese -- under two totally different teachers, "cult-like" is not a possibility. That both these teachers can manifest the exact same physical principles, have the same effects on other people's bodies, and yet express their arts in completely different ways and with their own unique philosophies, speaks to the fact that these skills do exist, that they are designed to be effective against individuals who are not trained in internal methods, and that they do not require a "brainwashed" mind to be effective.

All you need to do is go visit one of these teachers or their senior students and feel for yourself. "Feeling is believing."

[Interloper]

Does your understanding of kuzushi comes from your self being able to apply it practical in a non compliant situation, on an of equal or even larger size opponent ? Or your understanding comes in the form of in the Dojo, grab my arm, no the other one situation?.....Yours explanation on this matters continue to sound as you are saying that with an “internally” lined up body meeting and dealing with “non internal” force head on is the thing to do ?

Yes, I can and have. I have applied it on a 350lb judoka (who was told to grab me and try to move or throw me), a 220 lb karateka (who was invited to charge directly into me to knock me over), and several others. I am a 5'5" 155lb woman. The reason why it works, is that their bodies are trained to work in pieces, sequentially, while internal training conditions the body to work in a unified, coordinated way in a continuous loop of power generation and structural maintenance. Even though they are very well coordinated and skilled at their arts, the way their bodies and arts are conditioned and designed, the upper and lower body are never truly unified. This creates openings and weaknesses that are exploited by people who do have the unified body and the related processes of movement.

No, force is not met "head on." Rather, it 1) is received and channeled through the body to the ground, and brought instantaneously back up from the ground through the body, back to the point of contact and into the attacker's center of mass, augmented by additional power created through the manipulation and mechinations of specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia. Or 2) redirected and accelerated through subtle manipulation of those same connective tissues. How it is dealt with depends on the circumstances and what you want to do with the opponent's energy.

[windwalker]

All you need to do is go visit one of these teachers or their senior students and feel for yourself. "Feeling is believing."

Kind of depends on the level and understanding of the one feeling it. In most cases they may not feel anything " kind of the point" if they could they would adjust to it, they will react not understanding what just happened but wonder how it happened. For advanced level students as shown in the clip being able to feel whats happening they will try to adjust which is being questioned as to their actions in attempting to do so.



Or as some do, they will look at a demo and not understand the implications or what's being trained and try to draw conclusions based on that.
Most of the time negative.

In my work I've moved beyond the distinctions of internal external feeling they are not very beneficial and only add confusion to the process of building, working on, awareness manifested in a physical art.

While I do find a lot of similarities and can replicate much of what I see I've also found in talking with some people who have worked directly with some of the teachers mentioned , that the what, how, seems to be different. I do find it interesting contresting with what I've felt....

Watching the clips often I find myself not agreeing with the strategies or usage employed.
My own measure of things, having worked with people who boxed using my work against them, are boxers.

In most cases any contact made is one that will either knockout or damaged a person.
Non-contact skill sets become even more important in understanding how to not allow this to happen.

Having said this, what often gets labeled external is IMO very misleading. The power speed skill level of those operating at the higher levels of their art often rival and exceed any expected benefit or usage of practicing something that is labeled as internal.

Most often found out by those making the mistake feeling its not , when they attempt to use it against those who are quite skilled not having trained in what are called “internal” .



Like reading about theories used and watching examples shown.

[windwalker]

Yes, I can and have. I have applied it on a 350lb judoka (who was told to grab me and try to move or throw me), a 220 lb karateka (who was invited to charge directly into me to knock me over), and several others. I am a 5'5" 155lb woman. The reason why it works, is that their bodies are trained to work in pieces, sequentially, while internal training conditions the body to work in a unified, coordinated way in a continuous loop of power generation and structural maintenance. Even though they are very well coordinated and skilled at their arts, the way their bodies and arts are conditioned and designed, the upper and lower body are never truly unified. This creates openings and weaknesses that are exploited by people who do have the unified body and the related processes of movement.

No, force is not met "head on." Rather, it 1) is received and channeled through the body to the ground, and brought instantaneously back up from the ground through the body, back to the point of contact and into the attacker's center of mass, augmented by additional power created through the manipulation and mechinations of specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia. Or 2) redirected and accelerated through subtle manipulation of those same connective tissues. How it is dealt with depends on the circumstances and what you want to do with the opponent's energy.

None of what you've written although interesting and not saying it doesn't or didn't work has been shown to work directly in a non compliant setting against one who is actively trying to knock out, throw, grapple ect by a complete unknown or stranger of equal or grater skill.

If it did ones basic argument of functional usage would be easier to prove using examples from non demo settings...
On the other hand basic skills sets, foot work, distancing, timing, entering, ect are most often lacking by those who's practices are primarily about developing what are called "internal" skill sets. One must be clear in what what is looking for and working on why it works, when it will not and why it fails

Had a student recently stop training with my small group, going back to one of his old teachers so he could learn "inner fa jin" skill sets
My focus is on founctinal usage building the aforementioned skill sets is based on what might be called a "taiji" engine" he and many others I've met
seem to like to talk about yin/yang/ ect, and other aspects demoing them in a very limited context...
They dont get much into the usage aspects real time, real world...

different focus

Upon Facing an Enemy - 2


In facing an enemy, all that matters is the mind. It is necessary to know that if you intimidate yourself, it is an insult to the enemy; if you are afraid of the enemy, it is an insult to yourself.

You reach your opponent but are not reached by him; that is the essence of watching (waiting patiently but ever alertly) with the mind. You snatch your opponent without being snatched yourself; that is the mechanics of fighting with the mind.

The body is for carrying out the purpose and the mind should be the master. The mind is mainly doing the quiet, steady (with alertness and patience) part working from the inside. The body is mainly doing the active motion part working on the outside.

If you discern what is outside and what is inside, then you would understand what should be stressed and what should be taken lightly (i.e. what is more important and what is less important.)

http://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-lio ... -siu-jong/

[Trick]

Does your understanding of kuzushi comes from your self being able to apply it practical in a non compliant situation, on an of equal or even larger size opponent ? Or your understanding comes in the form of in the Dojo, grab my arm, no the other one situation?.....Yours explanation on this matters continue to sound as you are saying that with an “internally” lined up body meeting and dealing with “non internal” force head on is the thing to do ?

Yes, I can and have. I have applied it on a 350lb judoka (who was told to grab me and try to move or throw me), a 220 lb karateka (who was invited to charge directly into me to knock me over), and several others. I am a 5'5" 155lb woman. The reason why it works, is that their bodies are trained to work in pieces, sequentially, while internal training conditions the body to work in a unified, coordinated way in a continuous loop of power generation and structural maintenance. Even though they are very well coordinated and skilled at their arts, the way their bodies and arts are conditioned and designed, the upper and lower body are never truly unified. This creates openings and weaknesses that are exploited by people who do have the unified body and the related processes of movement.

No, force is not met "head on." Rather, it 1) is received and channeled through the body to the ground, and brought instantaneously back up from the ground through the body, back to the point of contact and into the attacker's center of mass, augmented by additional power created through the manipulation and mechinations of specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia. Or 2) redirected and accelerated through subtle manipulation of those same connective tissues. How it is dealt with depends on the circumstances and what you want to do with the opponent's energy.

Hmmm, still sound as a “head on” approach, but I probably misunderstand your theorizing. In my mind there’s always a bit of yielding first in play to lead into emptiness, this momentum can be so quick and minimal to the point it’s misunderstood by inexperienced onlookers and inexperienced “attackers”. It can be so misunderstood that some practitioners make up another way of theory that eventually only work within ones own group of true believers.....

[Trick]

All you need to do is go visit one of these teachers or their senior students and feel for yourself. "Feeling is believing."

As soon they are in my neighborhood and they not charge a fortune to enter their seminars, preferably its for free, I’ll go

[marvin8]

Russian ILC team is at The Seventh World Cup Tai Chi Chuan Championship 2018 in Taipei. Interesting to see if the "kuzushi on contact" with "6 directional energy" shows up in push hands competition this weekend.

They seem to be doing well so far. I wish them luck.

From https://www.facebook.com/alex.skalozub? ... &tn-str=*F:

Alex Skalozub shared a live video.
7 hrs ·
Already posted our Anton.
https://www.facebook.com/tuishou/videos/10156864992319577/

Apparently, Daria won silver? in forms:

Alex Skalozub is with Andrey Araslanov and 2 others at Taipei Arena冰上樂園醫護室.
8 hrs · Taipei, Taiwan

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44868713_10209818450978489_6076228235245387776_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=497ac5a468b97fe9b573949beb432041&oe=5C4E0052

Gadilbek Mursaliyev Андрюха, молодца, мои поздравления!!!
Andrei, good job, my congratulations!!!
https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44880655_10209818451458501_7945902824330625024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=a9a914204301a5da63954182b093c170&oe=5C423D48