How you react

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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:24 pm

Trick wrote:Hmmm, not good. That story don’t make the “internal power” thing believable. First you grab as a typical person” would do !? And then.........Sorry that don’t hold at all, I mean playing role game.


Trick, you don't seem to understand the nature of "internal structure," or the process of creating and maintaining it under duress. It's at the foundation of all internal arts. That's what Chen-style taiji people, and others, spend so much time "standing." They are not just hanging out, they are working hard to made connections inside their bodies -- muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia -- and unifying their structure from "crown to ground." Once they have that, then they must work on being able to manipulate those internal tissues to change and adapt to hold that structure even when being pushed, pulled, struck, etc. There is no role game going on, only the effort of maintaining a neutral state under physical duress.
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:51 am

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:Hmmm, not good. That story don’t make the “internal power” thing believable. First you grab as a typical person” would do !? And then.........Sorry that don’t hold at all, I mean playing role game.


Trick, you don't seem to understand the nature of "internal structure," or the process of creating and maintaining it under duress. It's at the foundation of all internal arts. That's what Chen-style taiji people, and others, spend so much time "standing." They are not just hanging out, they are working hard to made connections inside their bodies -- muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia -- and unifying their structure from "crown to ground." Once they have that, then they must work on being able to manipulate those internal tissues to change and adapt to hold that structure even when being pushed, pulled, struck, etc. There is no role game going on, only the effort of maintaining a neutral state under physical duress.

I’ve been practicing MA’s since i was six years old now I’m 52. Done fencing to jujutsu,then Karate and some Aikido, and then CMA’s. I’ve trained in Japan/Okinawa and for the last (almost)fourteen years i lived and trained in China. As a kid I was the thinner weaker one and seemingly always had to face stronger older guys(kind of still like this on the stronger part) I have everything from just touched hand to sparred, never once have I been made to jump up or fly back in the air by a mere touch...maybe I’ve already have my six directional power naturally in place my body ? But I do have felt some interesting things but nothing miraculous . As for the CMA’s i study/ied they are TJQ, YiQuan/XYQ and Tongbeiquan, I’ve done a lot of so called standing practice so I know what that is about........But back to yours seminar story there where New students in the seminar, in other word peoples who didn’t need to act as “typical person”...those where the guys who should have a first hand feel. But instead an experienced(you) student was used for the demonstration(a simple arm grab),one who could play along, switching mood of “typical person” to a masterful one. There’s a big risk here that the new students observing this kind of play might begin to play games too and not being natural about it.
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Re: How you react

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:33 am

Trick wrote: I have everything from just touched hand to sparred, never once have I been made to jump up or fly back in the air by a mere touch...maybe I’ve already have my six directional power naturally in place my body ? But I do have felt some interesting things but nothing miraculous .


I've never been pushed away by "a mere touch". Rather most of those pushes that threw me far away or made me a willingness hopper felt very solid, sometimes quite painful, like my whole ribcage was pressed in or was going to burst.

But back to yours seminar story there where New students in the seminar, in other word peoples who didn’t need to act as “typical person”...those where the guys who should have a first hand feel. But instead an experienced(you) student was used for the demonstration(a simple arm grab),one who could play along, switching mood of “typical person” to a masterful one. There’s a big risk here that the new students observing this kind of play might begin to play games too and not being natural about it.


Wholeheartedly agree. The only reason I've spent money on most (of the few) seminars I paid for was not to learn new things, but to feel the teachers touch first hand. Nothing will teach you more than to just feel someone skilled practitioner's sense of lightness/heaviness, structure, peng, balance, tingjin, timing etc. Just five minutes of private time with a really good teacher, just feeling his (or her) touch, can teach you more and much more important things than hundreds of hours learning new forms and dozens of other solo exercises.

To not letting a new student feel those "master's" touch first hand is to rob the whole value of attending a seminar from the students.
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:05 am

Trick wrote:
I’ve been practicing MA’s since i was six years old now I’m 52. Done fencing to jujutsu,then Karate and some Aikido, and then CMA’s. I’ve trained in Japan/Okinawa and for the last (almost)fourteen years i lived and trained in China. As a kid I was the thinner weaker one and seemingly always had to face stronger older guys(kind of still like this on the stronger part) I have everything from just touched hand to sparred, never once have I been made to jump up or fly back in the air by a mere touch...maybe I’ve already have my six directional power naturally in place my body ? But I do have felt some interesting things but nothing miraculous . As for the CMA’s i study/ied they are TJQ, YiQuan/XYQ and Tongbeiquan, I’ve done a lot of so called standing practice so I know what that is about........But back to yours seminar story there where New students in the seminar, in other word peoples who didn’t need to act as “typical person”...those where the guys who should have a first hand feel. But instead an experienced(you) student was used for the demonstration(a simple arm grab),one who could play along, switching mood of “typical person” to a masterful one. There’s a big risk here that the new students observing this kind of play might begin to play games too and not being natural about it.


So, it sounds like you've never actually trained in an internal martial art that had a solid internal component or curriculum. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you're saying. There is a gap in your understanding of what constitutes "internal."

"Internal" method is not a panacea, nor a super power. It's just recognizing ways to use the body in a way no longer commonplace or known to most people. If one person has the skills, and another doesn't, the person who has them will have an advantage in both power and structural stability, as well as the ability to manipulate the other person's mass and structure. If both individuals have the skills in equal measure, they will neutralize each other's effects, and the contact between them will instead become either a chess match of trying to create openings in the opponent to exploit, or someone will manage to clobber the other guy in the head with a rock. ;)

If two people touch hands, and both have internal skills, but one has more complete and/or refined ones than the other, then the person with the lesser skills will be at a disadvantage unless he can find or create a gap to exploit in his opponent.

So, when a more experienced teacher touches hands with a student who has some skill but is not at the teacher's level, even if the student provides structured resistance, the teacher should still be able to have an effect on the student's body without the student having to "tank" or fake being overcome, in order for the teacher to be able to demonstrate. Seminars and classes, unless someone comes in to "dojo/kwoon storm" or challenge the teacher and the art, are not places where people try to impede the teaching process. You give the demonstrator honest energy and you don't become a floppy puppet to try and make him look good. You don't try to shut the teacher down (very rude and disrespectful!) but you don't tank, either.
Last edited by Interloper on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:48 pm

"So, it sounds like you've never actually trained in an internal martial art that had a solid internal component or curriculum. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you're saying. There is a gap in your understanding of what constitutes "internal."

I could say, just reading the post the same things about many of the postings here. I do understand there are levels and different experiences that people have.

The bottom line should be combat effectiveness. What is it that is allows that makes it worth learning.

Others I have met, they can move you by touch one does not feel what is moving them.

In the clip all teachers mentioned not touching the bone.
This was also mentioned to me and what I use in my own work. We use 3 levels of contact starting with skin.

Can you touch on why both teachers mention not connecting with the bone or as some might call frame.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:54 pm

"You give the demonstrator honest energy and you don't become a floppy puppet to try and make him look good. But you don't tank, either"

Agree, also to add there are times when it doesn't work the teacher needs to make an adjustment or they can use it as a teaching moment.

I tend to use it as a teaching moment pointing out why it didn't work and what principles were not being followed.

"the person who has them will have an advantage in both power and structural stability, as well as the ability to manipulate the other person's mass and structure. "

Both teachers mention not touching the bone can you explain how you manipulate another's mass and structure without doing so, and why it might not be a good idea to to do so.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:33 pm

windwalker wrote:"So, it sounds like you've never actually trained in an internal martial art that had a solid internal component or curriculum. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you're saying. There is a gap in your understanding of what constitutes "internal."

I could say, just reading the post the same things about many of the postings here. I do understand there are levels and different experiences that people have.

Yes, agreed. There are varying degrees of "completeness" in such content and curriculum, across the spectrum of internal arts. That's why having a big get-together where everyone gets to feel, and demonstrate, and explain, would be more productive than all of us trying to speak from our own particular experiences and vantage points on this Tower of Babel that is the internet.

The bottom line should be combat effectiveness. What is it that is allows that makes it worth learning.

Absolutely. I have met and trained with people who had one small component from the "internal" spectrum but what they had, they had taught themselves to use to the maximum of effectiveness in their martial applications. That's way better than having what would be considered a deep and broad mastery of "internals" but not be able to fight one's way out of a paper bag with it.

Others I have met, they can move you by touch one does not feel what is moving them.

That's from being able to have zero pressure at the point of contact, so they feel nothing where you are touching. But you are delivering force both directly to their center of mass, and through their joint alignments to their center of mass. When you manipulate and deliver force through an aligned body frame, the person can't feel anything because the force is passing cleanly through his aligned joints -- it's not getting dumped into a bend, or pinching tissues together. It's what Sagawa Yukiyoshi (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu) called "transparent power," a concentrated "beam" or pulse of force that doesn't disturb the point of contact, but goes concussively deep into the opponent's center.

In the clip all teachers mentioned not touching the bone.
This was also mentioned to me and what I use in my own work. We use 3 levels of contact starting with skin.

Can you touch on why both teachers mention not connecting with the bone or as some might call frame.

Yes, my understanding of the degrees of contact are at skin level, flesh level, and bone level. This concept is contained in both the internal Japanese and internal Chinese arts that I study.
It's not that you can't touch the bone in the opponent's structure, it's more that you don't want to create vulnerability in yourself by letting the opponent feel your connection to his center. If he can feel that, then he can follow it back like a path, to your own center of mass and overtake it.
So, you must avoid telegraphing that you are manipulating their structure (and frame). This means that you can't give any pressure at the point of contact, which would be a sign that you are creating a pathway to your own center of mass via your connecting limb.

Instead, the limbs you use to make a contact point can only be used as conduits for force you are generating elsewhere in your body. The manipulation has to be in the degree and concentration of "Yang/Yo" you apply, to compress your opponent's vertebrae as you propel him out and/or down, or, the degree and concentration of "Yin/In" you apply, to make him stick to you as you draw him in. The deeper you propel into, or "suction" from, his bones, the more powerful the effect. But you have to be able to do this without letting any pressure come from whatever you are using to make a point of contact (usually the hands and arms, but it could be a shoulder, a hip, a knee, etc.) with your opponent.
Last edited by Interloper on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby klonk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:52 pm

Sam and Roy were within what I might term a friends of friends network. Therefore, I will say nothing negative about either man.

If it were some other hypothetical pair of old experienced chaps comparing notes, not Chin and Goldberg, I would say too esoteric: what is not esoteric is what works, and if an old man (I am old myself) tried that shit on me I would clean his clock.
Last edited by klonk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:09 pm

klonk wrote:Sam and Roy are within what I might term a friends of friends network. Therefore, I will say nothing negative about either man.

If it were some other hypothetical pair of old experienced chaps comparing notes, not Chin and Goldberg, I would say too esoteric: what is not esoteric is what works, and if an old man (I am old myself) tried that shit on me I would clean his clock.


To be fair, klonk, what you are seeing in the videos is a piece of a training methodology that is separate from combat and fighting applications. Yes, what they are doing is esoteric - a distillation of a body method that can be embedded in fighting technique to make it more powerful and controlling than conventional martial movement.

But taken as this separate piece, it is not in itself martial, or a fighting method. Rather, it is a power source.

Roy Goldberg mastered jujutsu and has ferocious waza. Sam Chin is a consummate fighter who has paid his dues and now can spend his golden years teaching and grooming new generations of martial artists. Their intention in this video is to demonstrate principle in its pure form, not in its martially applicable form. In aikijujutsu, we call such things "aiki no jutsu" -- pure aiki/internal expression... not martial.
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Re: How you react

Postby klonk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:37 pm

Interloper wrote:In aikijujutsu, we call such things "aiki no jutsu" -- pure aiki/internal expression... not martial.


Interesting. How do you react when one says "aikido dive bunny"? I know aikijujutsu is a different flavor of sushi entirely, but you see my point.
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Re: How you react

Postby klonk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:00 pm

For perspective, a tai chi expert told me to stop it when I would throw in a few shotokai love taps ("sen gata"). I was doing it wrong. In real life, it would have disabled the opponent.
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:05 pm

Interloper wrote:So, it sounds like you've never actually trained in an internal martial art that had a solid internal component or curriculum. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you're saying. There is a gap in your understanding of what constitutes "internal."
.

If you say so...on the other hand yours posting seem you have not stepped outside the box and really tried it out, 8-)
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Re: How you react

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:34 pm

klonk wrote:For perspective, a tai chi expert told me to stop it when I would throw in a few shotokai love taps ("sen gata"). I was doing it wrong. In real life, it would have disabled the opponent.


If he said this then what made him an expert.
What you mention is the best opportunity to demonstrate the differences in approach and technique
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Re: How you react

Postby klonk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:40 pm

windwalker wrote:
klonk wrote:For perspective, a tai chi expert told me to stop it when I would throw in a few shotokai love taps ("sen gata"). I was doing it wrong. In real life, it would have disabled the opponent.


If he said this then what made him an expert.
What you mention is the best opportunity to demonstrate the differences in approach and technique


His school, his rule.

Saving face is a big thing with Chinese. I go along with that.
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:48 pm

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:
I’ve been practicing MA’s since i was six years old now I’m 52. Done fencing to jujutsu,then Karate and some Aikido, and then CMA’s. I’ve trained in Japan/Okinawa and for the last (almost)fourteen years i lived and trained in China. As a kid I was the thinner weaker one and seemingly always had to face stronger older guys(kind of still like this on the stronger part) I have everything from just touched hand to sparred, never once have I been made to jump up or fly back in the air by a mere touch...maybe I’ve already have my six directional power naturally in place my body ? But I do have felt some interesting things but nothing miraculous . As for the CMA’s i study/ied they are TJQ, YiQuan/XYQ and Tongbeiquan, I’ve done a lot of so called standing practice so I know what that is about........But back to yours seminar story there where New students in the seminar, in other word peoples who didn’t need to act as “typical person”...those where the guys who should have a first hand feel. But instead an experienced(you) student was used for the demonstration(a simple arm grab),one who could play along, switching mood of “typical person” to a masterful one. There’s a big risk here that the new students observing this kind of play might begin to play games too and not being natural about it.


So, it sounds like you've never actually trained in an internal martial art that had a solid internal component or curriculum. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you're saying. There is a gap in your understanding of what constitutes "internal."

"Internal" method is not a panacea, nor a super power. It's just recognizing ways to use the body in a way no longer commonplace or known to most people. If one person has the skills, and another doesn't, the person who has them will have an advantage in both power and structural stability, as well as the ability to manipulate the other person's mass and structure. If both individuals have the skills in equal measure, they will neutralize each other's effects, and the contact between them will instead become either a chess match of trying to create openings in the opponent to exploit, or someone will manage to clobber the other guy in the head with a rock. ;)

If two people touch hands, and both have internal skills, but one has more complete and/or refined ones than the other, then the person with the lesser skills will be at a disadvantage unless he can find or create a gap to exploit in his opponent.

So, when a more experienced teacher touches hands with a student who has some skill but is not at the teacher's level, even if the student provides structured resistance, the teacher should still be able to have an effect on the student's body without the student having to "tank" or fake being overcome, in order for the teacher to be able to demonstrate. Seminars and classes, unless someone comes in to "dojo/kwoon storm" or challenge the teacher and the art, are not places where people try to impede the teaching process. You give the demonstrator honest energy and you don't become a floppy puppet to try and make him look good. You don't try to shut the teacher down (very rude and disrespectful!) but you don't tank, either.

The internal structure thing to bounce of opponents is not the epitome of the internal martial art practice. As I mentioned before the Aiki of Aikido is the true Aiki, the way of not clashing , i think all martial arts on a higher level strive for this, so at the highest level there’s no internal vs external. I might misunderstand how you explain your approach on this but to me it sure sound when you describe it, it is to use “internal” structure head on on an opponents “raw” incoming force? and that’s not the way to do it, whenever you will step outside your dojo to try that out you will know........Anyway practice hard(soft) and move around to get some experience and you will climb that experience ladder.
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