Grandmaster Jimmy Heow | I Liq Chuan

[marvin8]

The comment I have for this particular clip is the same I have for Sam's: Can they still do what they do in non-PH/sticky hand settings?

At 19:57 of the OP video, Jimmy Heow demonstrates the difference between hard (external) and soft (internal) kuzushi on contact while saying, “This is my cousin brother (referring to GM Sam Chin). Like this . . . “

Out of the ILC push hands and sparring (e.g., friendly, competition) videos I have seen (some posted from this past weekend), I have not seen the effects of "internal" off balancing.

In my experience (mainly as a Bagua guy), to be able to apply sticking well in free fighting, you also need excellent footwork as well as grappling skills. Footwork is necessary to keep up with the opponent as he tries to break free from your attempt to establish and maintain contact, while grappling skills like throwing and locking allow you to quickly off-balance and take the opponent down once a sticking/ controlling point is established, as opposed to just pulling or pushing the opponent away.

Although not "sticking," what does happen in "free fighting" (e.g., MMA, boxing, etc), without a lot of footwork and contact, is one lures opponent out of position (e.g, feint, etc.), changes direction (e.g., moves or level changes), the opponent freezes (controlled), then one releases/finishes (e.g., off balances, traps, punches, throws, etc.).

I also personally feel that demonstrations of this type should always come with a caveat, lest viewers be misguided into believing that being able to stick and control the opponent is the end-all and be-all of IMA fighting skill.

IMO, the teacher demonstrating should teach students how to use the demonstrated skill(s) in real fights. This is how "external" teachers/coaches are rated: how well their students can defend themselves in a real fight, using the skills demonstrated/taught.

[Gringorn]

The comment I have for this particular clip is the same I have for Sam's: Can they still do what they do in non-PH/sticky hand settings?

Both Jimmy and Sam competed quite successfully for several years. Sam have many students who have also competed successfully. Though within a ruleset with gloves etc. Not to make to big a point of it, but, well, it is a major point.

Sam has been tested by numerous people throughout the years, many of them serious dudes, and he touches freely anyone who shows up. He does what he does repetedly and consistently. I am sure it is the same for Jimmy as well, though others would have to attest for that.

By the way, have you ever seen Sam do the "Frankenstein walk"?

Sam is quite clear that when it comes to actual fighting, you don't stick like this. But the skill that you learn through sticking and spinning, is what teaches you - hopefully - a superior understanding of distancing, angles and gives you an advantage that important moment when contact is made. For contact is always made, one way or another.

Also, why is everything about duelling-type fighting?
There are levels of violence and levels of force. One thing is sparring. Another thing is assault. Yet another thing is an unruly drunk that needs to be escorted out the door without neccecarrily escalating the situation or hurting the guy. Then there are situations where people in professional capasity might need to defend themselves until backup arrives or control people without resorting to physicial violence, i.e. working at a closed ward for people with dementia, sheltered housing etc. I know this is kind of off topic, but not everything begins with two people of more or less the same level of skill, withing a pre-aranged setting where both are trying to score points or knock the other out. The skill is real. How you apply it depends on the situation.


That being said, I would love to see ILC put out clips that are not only within a spinning/sticky hands-context. There is so much nice stuff that could be shown and which would make a lot of more emmidiate sense to most people.

[windwalker]

The comment I have for this particular clip is the same I have for Sam's: Can they still do what they do in non-PH/sticky hand settings?

Both Jimmy and Sam competed quite successfully for several years. Sam have many students who have also competed successfully. Though within a ruleset with gloves etc. Not to make to big a point of it, but, well, it is a major point.

Are there any clips showing them in action

Sam has been tested by numerous people throughout the years, many of them serious dudes, and he touches freely anyone who shows up. He does what he does repetedly and consistently. I am sure it is the same for Jimmy as well, though others would have to attest for that.
Tested by those of equal or greater skill level ?

By the way, have you ever seen Sam do the "Frankenstein walk"?

Sam is quite clear that when it comes to actual fighting, you don't stick like this. But the skill that you learn through sticking and spinning, is what teaches you - hopefully - a superior understanding of distancing, angles and gives you an advantage that important moment when contact is made. For contact is always made, one way or another. If this is not used and it "hopefully" provides an understanding on something its not used for...Why spend so much time on it...Like push hands in taiji, it seems like a lot of time investment on something that "hopefully" teaches a skill set that is never used as practiced.

Also, why is everything about duelling-type fighting?

Because its standard that you yourself brought up that is used by most people in judging as well as mentioning being tested.

" competed successfully for several years"

There are levels of violence and levels of force. One thing is sparring. Another thing is assault. Yet another thing is an unruly drunk that needs to be escorted out the door without neccecarrily escalating the situation or hurting the guy. Then there are situations where people in professional capasity might need to defend themselves until backup arrives or control people without resorting to physicial violence, i.e. working at a closed ward for people with dementia, sheltered housing etc. I know this is kind of off topic, but not everything begins with two people of more or less the same level of skill, withing a pre-aranged setting where both are trying to score points or knock the other out. The skill is real. How you apply it depends on the situation.

The main point that some have mentioned, what is practiced is not shown in usage, and yet is held up as something that is worth spending a lot of time learning. Even in the context presented "push hands" its debatable ... I do agree with and like many of the things both teachers present do not agree with the ideas of applications and usage shown.


That being said, I would love to see ILC put out clips that are not only within a spinning/sticky hands-context. There is so much nice stuff that could be shown and which would make a lot of more emmidiate sense to most people.

If it did make sense some of what is shown would not be questioned...
Agree that both teachers have skill in what they do.
It would also be fair to point out that what is being shown is not used directly or very clearly in what
is presented to show it in use....

The same can be mentioned with other arts using methods that are called internal attempting to make
a distinction of usage based on this aspect.

Not saying there is no distinction to be made only pointing that often what is shown does not show it, nor does this lack of direct usage
not shown, invalidate the theories and rationale for why and how it works.

You've mentioned gloves, why would one not practice what is shown using them if this is the
context in which one is expecting to use it in....

[Wanderingdragon]

Sticking is to mitigate aggression, the next step is in your attacking properly. Off balance does not always mean to force someone to tip over, it is the ability to keep them busy trying to figure out how to defend the onslaught, while not having the time to mount an effective offense of there own. This is IMO, the result of not fully understanding the true training of tui shou.