Mantis instructor wins in "MMA".

[JAB]

Still waiting.

[jpaton]

While your waiting maybe you can formulate an intelligent response to my awesome post. Instead of acting like a child and asking for something you know you’re not gonna get…

[mixjourneyman]

Jake, there are plenty of clips floating around of Kung Fu guys of various styles sparring with good levels of contact and making their stuff look like Kung Fu. For instance there were lots of Kuo Shou clips of TSD guys and also Mike Patterson's fighters posted a while back.
While I admit that to a large extent fighting looks like fighting, not everyone uses high roundhouse kicks to the head and ground and pound as their main strategies. When I spar people I tend to use Beng Quan a lot, dunno if it looks like Beng, but thats the technique I use. Also lots of low shovel kicks. So in that aspect it does look different than a bunch of round kicks and jab/cross combos

[JAB]

I don't think you know me well enough to start talking shit bro. And frankly if you want to, fuck off.
What response do you want? This is headed straight for BTDT, so look up the hundreds of responses to your post that have been made eons before you even knew of EF! This debate is not new to anyone but you.
Why does everyone always say (in regards to real fighting or sport combat) that it all "looks like kickboxing?" Because we kick and punch in a manner that pretty much is the same across the board. It is not like X who studies Mantis, will have a TOTALLY different LOOKING cross, than Y who studies Boxing. Again these are general statements, but overall correct statements.
What if I created a style that specialized in using your extended pinky finger to strike with (much like a Phoenix Eye fist)? The mechanics of how I would throw a punch with that pinky sticking out is pretty much the same as a regular bloke striking without this "specialized" training, no? My point is I can only throw a punch so many ways regardless of my background. And if we want to discuss throwing a very good punch, well that narrows the margin even more.
So the reason you do not see "Mantis techniques or flavor" is because we all fight pretty much the same way. Our training approach may be TOTALLY different, but the goal (if we are discussing combative's) is the same. So the way it "looks" is going to be pretty congruent with this ideology, like it or not.
Now this cat may have "abandoned" his Mantis training for MMA (neither of us knows that for sure), but we cannot discern that from simply watching a 3 minute clip on Youtube!

Go train more bro!
Jake

[JAB]

Mix
You are talking apples to oranges bro. I have seen some, and not seen others. Overall I do not agree. I have seen a lot of people trying WAY too hard to make their techniques look like their form or whatever. It is usually not that impressive. I cannot speak of the clips you are referencing though since I do not know the specifics.
But since you offered..... how do you enter close enough to use those techniques? You NEVER throw a jab? Never a cross? Who are you sparring? Try it on a boxer as I have. When I tried to Beng my coach I got nailed three times.
I digress anyways....


Okay, I will pose a question that I would love to hear a response to:

Why is it we do not hear of MMA fighters seeking out instruction from ancient chinese martial teachers, or their arts, if these techniques are so good and (what some say) superior? Why aren't Thai Boxers training in Xing Yi to improve their striking art? Why aren't Greco Roman champs cross training in Shuai Chiao? Why?

Jake

[mixjourneyman]

Hey Jake I'll answer the questions to the best of my memory of your post:

1) when I throw Beng its a multi level and multi combination punch. Usually I bridge differently depending who I'm fighting.
If I'm fighting another Kung Fu guy I tend to bridge on the arm first and then go over or under the bridge. For Kickboxers I've had to make some adjustments because they don't do much bridging work and their punches are faster and snappier. What I usually do is throw a straight Beng into their guard to get them to react and then I follow through with either beng or pi depending what their reaction is.
OTOH, I also practice kick boxing and so I usually do about half my sparring as xingyi and half kickboxing.
Basically my Xingyi technique involves bridging, sticking, and striking with beng and pi.
My kickboxing is pretty much jab, cross, low round, etc....

I haven't video taped my sparring, so I don't know what it looks like.
My friend told me though that when I sparred him xingyi style it was much scarier for him than when I was throwing out kb techniques.
Though that would make sense since I have been doing Xingyi for much longer than KB.

For MMA or Thai guys there is a damn good reason they don't do Chinese arts, that is because for the most part CMA teachers are much less capable fighters than sport fighters. That has something to do with unrealistic techniques and something to do with pressure testing.
In the end, I found a good CMA teacher who is teaching me how to fight using techniques from Xingyi, they work against some people really well, not so good against others. As I get better they work better, but I'm still and always will just be a student of martial arts.

[JAB]

Mix
It sounds like we are saying the same thing, yet you put it better. Much of the CMA are antiquated. You study both XY and Kickboxing because you see one lacking what the other offers. Same with me.
So in the end we agree? I guess.
I am willing to bet your fighting looks like......you fighting. Not XY. Not anything. That is the point I try to make with these young bucks

[mixjourneyman]

Mix
It sounds like we are saying the same thing, yet you put it better. Much of the CMA are antiquated. You study both XY and Kickboxing because you see one lacking what the other offers. Same with me.
So in the end we agree? I guess.
I am willing to bet your fighting looks like......you fighting. Not XY. Not anything. That is the point I try to make with these young bucks

For the most part I agree, especially about personal flavour not looking stylistic, but I feel that you will adapt various technical stuff from your art. Beng is still beng, a shovel kick is still a shovel kick. As far as I know, boxing, KB, etc don't have vertical fisted straight punches or straight low kicks. Those things are my staples and so unless I'm specifically doing KB techniques, my fighting looks like a lot of straight punches and kicks with the instep of the foot.
But arguing in circles makes me dizzy and I do understand what you are saying and partially agree

[jpaton]

I don't think you know me well enough to start talking shit bro. And frankly if you want to, fuck off.
What response do you want? This is headed straight for BTDT, so look up the hundreds of responses to your post that have been made eons before you even knew of EF! This debate is not new to anyone but you.
Why does everyone always say (in regards to real fighting or sport combat) that it all "looks like kickboxing?" Because we kick and punch in a manner that pretty much is the same across the board. It is not like X who studies Mantis, will have a TOTALLY different LOOKING cross, than Y who studies Boxing. Again these are general statements, but overall correct statements.
What if I created a style that specialized in using your extended pinky finger to strike with (much like a Phoenix Eye fist)? The mechanics of how I would throw a punch with that pinky sticking out is pretty much the same as a regular bloke striking without this "specialized" training, no? My point is I can only throw a punch so many ways regardless of my background. And if we want to discuss throwing a very good punch, well that narrows the margin even more.
So the reason you do not see "Mantis techniques or flavor" is because we all fight pretty much the same way. Our training approach may be TOTALLY different, but the goal (if we are discussing combative's) is the same. So the way it "looks" is going to be pretty congruent with this ideology, like it or not.
Now this cat may have "abandoned" his Mantis training for MMA (neither of us knows that for sure), but we cannot discern that from simply watching a 3 minute clip on Youtube!

Go train more bro!
Jake

gotta disagree again. not all systems punch the same. not all system have jabs, not all systems have crosses. a punch is not a punch. this is at least partially due to the fact that not all systems stances are the same but also due to different ideas of how to generate power (kinda the same thing though). the reason a cross is a cross and not another punch is because of the way boxers stand and throw it. yi chuan and yang tai chi don't throw punches with the back hand the same as a cross. yi chuan and boxing both have hooks but they are thrown differently. having studied yi chuan and boxing i could easily tell the difference between the two. i think you could too.

you can lose the chip bro.

[JAB]

Don't come with tude and you will not experience a chip

I won't go into the Yi Quan thing, as that is a whole different bag of worms IMO/IME. But since you comment that I should know the diff.... yeah, a boxer knows how to throw a solid punch. Yi Quan I have studied and seen looks like slop compared to boxing I have studied / seen.
Why don't Taiji and Yi Quan throw punches off the back arm in your training?
What systems do not throw a punch off the lead arm?

Mix-
Beng does not have to be thrown with a vertical (standing= Li) fist. The elements are represenative of energies, not fixed postures or forms. A cross can be considered Beng in this context.

Jake

[mixjourneyman]

Jes'sayin that beng has the beng feeling.
To me a cross feels different than beng, plus when I'm using boxing techniques I'm up on my toes, where as when I'm doing xingyi techniques I'm mostly using half steps with the whole foot.

[JAB]

To each their own bro. No worries.

[beegs]

Okay, I will pose a question that I would love to hear a response to:

Why is it we do not hear of MMA fighters seeking out instruction from ancient chinese martial teachers, or their arts, if these techniques are so good and (what some say) superior? Why aren't Thai Boxers training in Xing Yi to improve their striking art? Why aren't Greco Roman champs cross training in Shuai Chiao? Why?

Jake

with all due respect i will give my opinion on this,

why are people always cpomparing any martial arts effectiveness to the mma in the cage? first off all styles differ in body methods and most that are used in a ring yes have modified to use jab cross, etc just as boxing. All arts have varients oin basic boxing punches, but are used different in each art, but really you should see a body method of an art in any fightin g if the person is saying they are doing an art.

If I did mma again and taped it, I wouldnt most likely use xy in mma, so I wouldnt post my clip as xy in mma match. However this does not mean xy is missing anything or useless, etc.

If you dont think mma guys train traditional arts ask kevin randleman his views on wing chun lately, theres alot of guys who you wouldnt expect who are doing traditional arts with mma, or at least dabbling to get pieces.

most traditional arts arent missing pieces, but what is bein g taught is missing stuff, and theres a bazillion great mma teachers to learn from, so mma is the way to go for most, for fighting in the cage. But if that means that traditional arts dont work, we would have to ask how people survived before mma took over, did peoples use of traditional arts work for them? Of course it always did and always will, those who are fighters will always be ok, no matter what art they do.

grappling was and is the biggest thing in the ring that most if not all traditionalist were missing, i agree on that, but Jake your making it sound as if all arts when fighting should look like boxing and bjj, which i disagree with, also you seem very disgruntled with cma and thats understandable, but just because shit aint on tape doesnt mean it doesnt exist, and just because fighter (a) cant beat mma guy (b), doesnt mean the art is useless.

I try not to post anymore on these topics as people have their views and passion, start cursing and being like children,
but felt like chiming in today

fighting doesnt look like forms, no more than fighting looks like hitting a speed bag, but forms and speedbag alike, teach a certain thing, the fight should represent the body method of ones training, so if we see someone who does tma doing mma and it all looks like mma, we know most if not all his training for the fight was based on what you see. which is also what i would do if competing in mma i would do mma training, but would not say i was doing xyz martial arts in the fight.

[Royal Dragon]

I think this whole conversation is stupid. There *May* have been something to gleam from it back in 1998 or before Macdonald's Sued mcdojo.com and it was forced to change it's name to Bullshido, but today it's really just irritating.

Today, we have seen Cung Le in the ring. 90% of what he did was CLEARLY right out of traditional Kung fu forms (people have even made Gifs of it). So I think the answer is that Kung fu works. The debate is done, over with and with the exception of the losers on Bullsido.com, who are stuck in a prepubescent time warp, NO ONE CARES!!!!!

[Kurt Robbins]

Despite the precurser this is a Great topic. Some people don't have (from what it sounds like) any real experiance to offer intelligent responses.
I know Jake, (having sparred and rolled with Jake) and I have a lot of respect for Beegs (Who has posted numerous clips of himself) for which I value both of their experiances and opinions.
As far as "this looks like this system" and "this looks like that system" is just ignorance. The less we put reliance on the mystical flavors of techniques and the more we examine techniques as levers, fulcrums, velocity and mass we can leave the "flavor" of systems behind and worry about the actual application.