Kettlebells and rings for MA?

[Formosa Neijia]

i'm wondering how this kind of stuff is viewed in the CMA community. Are you training anything like this? What is your impression of such training?

Here are some examples:


This is Steve Cotter doing some kettlebell work and extreme pistol tricks.


Here's a good Crossfit clip of swings: right and wrong.


This is a nice clip of Crossfit ring training for fitness. Like this one.


In case someone is wondering if this stuff is "Chinese" then here's a clip of the traditional training with such implements.


Here's another version from SJ.

So any opinions on kettlebells and ring training?

Dave C.

[Ian]

Dave, you reek of AGENDA.

I dropped kb work for deads, bench, weighted pulls, weighted dips, squat etc. for now. People say there's no transfer to MA ability, but IME there definitely is. Not to say you should do this stuff exclusively and expect to become awesome. My total time for heavy lifts per week is about 1.5 hours, whereas everything else takes about 19 hours per week. In other words it's a great as a supplement.

Another thing is I dropped military presses (and anything similar e.g. swings) completely, as it was making my shoulders tight. IMO shoulders should be completely loose and mobile but strong like a bull's. So when you grab a person with strong shoulders it'll feel like grabbing a heavy cog in a machine, i.e. impossible to hold onto. I stole some freeweight exercises from some systema guys for shoulders.

One thing about gaining muscle is that you have more mass to throw into your opponent.

[cloudz]

My tai chi instructor is also a kb instructor (and supplier) so it something we do in our class (!)

It's awesome conditioning and bang on for the kind of functional strength training that's useful for stand up grappling..
of course I'm not so crude as to ever use strength ..

[middleway]

i trained with KBs for quite a while... really good stuff ...

My training is fairly specific at the moment so now i dont use them so much ... as there isnt enough time in the day to fit it all in!! The whole body stuff has been replaced with heavy pack work up and down steep hills!

Im mainly all about the bodyweight work at the moment .... getting creative with pushups, situps, squats and pull ups is a whole world of exploration and insight.

cheers
Chris

[Eric]

How's this for creative?

[edededed]

It seems that traditional Shaolin styles do the kind of training as in the shuaijiao clip (various stone weights).

In baguazhang, there are the huge weapons; besides that, Fu Zhensong was known for practicing with a big stone ball, which, I imagine requires quite a bit of finesse to train properly (without killing yourself with it ...no place to grab onto.).

[Chris Fleming]

Hell yeah I train these things. I don't care what some people say--weight training (for strength, not bodybuilding) will not make you tight and drain all your chi away. If you stretch your shoulders will be just fine. Even if you don't stretch, you shouldn't be doing so many reps that they are getting sore and tight anyway. The old school strongmen looked at weight training as a practice, not a workout. That is, they are practicing a skill with each lift, not working out and getting pumped up.

[Dmitri]

CMA community

That is one freakishly eclectic and diverse group. There is no one answer... We have shuaijiao guys throwing sand bags and hanging off trees, and we have LKJ guys waving fingers at their opponents...

[CaliG]

You can't go wrong with KBs.

I've been using them for over a year now and my back, my grip my overall strength and conditioning for grappling is the best it's ever been.

In fact the instructors at my school even joke that I probably squeeze those wrist strengtheners all day like some type of psycho because people in class have a hard time breaking my grip once I have their gi. But the truth is I don't even focus on that I just work with the KBs about 10 minutes a day, go about my usual workout and the benefits just keep coming.

In fact for the back alone I'd recommend them I work for Fedex so I move a lot of heavy boxes but I've never had any problems thanks to the KBs.

[Formosa Neijia]

Dave, you reek of AGENDA.

Sounds like a deodorant for business people. AGENDA -- strong enough for a corporate raider but made for a small-time entrepreneur.

Curious as to why you dropped the KBs for the basic lifts?

I'm assuming that the KB work was strength-endurance with fairly high reps ala Pavel? And you're basic lifts are likely heavy weight and low rep, right?

I got my rings and a copy of this book yesterday:


The rings are great. Had a very productive workout with them.

CMA community

That is one freakishly eclectic and diverse group. There is no one answer... We have shuaijiao guys throwing sand bags and hanging off trees, and we have LKJ guys waving fingers at their opponents...

I was looking for opinions from various people. That's why I worded it like that. I'm not looking for one answer but diverse opinions. Of course I already know that such stuff "isn't internal."

One of the silliest aspects of CMA is that lifting weight with your genitals is supposedly great but picking up a dumbbell or KB is wrong.

One of the reasons I'm asking it that I'm finding this type of material builds whole body power rather quickly and there is a lot of info out there on it. There are tons of DVDs and articles about this kind of training (meaning it's being taught in a fairly open manner), and I would expect people to see the connection rather quickly. But I rarely read about such things in CMA circles.

For those of you doing KBs, do you find they work better than other methods?

Dave C.

[Formosa Neijia]

It seems that traditional Shaolin styles do the kind of training as in the shuaijiao clip (various stone weights).

In baguazhang, there are the huge weapons; besides that, Fu Zhensong was known for practicing with a big stone ball, which, I imagine requires quite a bit of finesse to train properly (without killing yourself with it ...no place to grab onto.).

Steve Cotter does circle walking with KBs on his videos. I wonder if specifically using weapons matters or not.

As to Fu's practice, modern medicine ball training is a great way to work the core. I can see BGZ people getting a lot out of the practice. Mine is 12 lbs. and it's quite heavy but you can get even heavier if you want. Despite the fact that we don't know for sure what Fu's practice was, I feel pretty confident that someone with BGZ experience, a med ball, and a basic rundown of med ball exercises could figure a lot of stuff out. Why don't more people try it out? What's stopping people?

Dave C.

[C.J.Wang]

Weight training has always been a part of traditional Bagua practice. Second generation masters like Cheng Tin-Hua, Ma Wei-Qi, and Ma Gui have all beeen documented training with weight. Cheng walks the circle with weighted vest and pushes heavy bags filled with stone; Ma Wei-Qi circle walks while holding a heavy steel bar in both hands; Ma Gui is said to train with stone locks weighing close to 100 pounds each, and can swing one single-handedly with ease.

However, this area of Bagua training, especially circle walking with weights, is usually reserved for advanced practitioners with solid structure and root so that the extra weight on the body wouldn't cause any adverse effects to health. When any part of the body is out of alignment, training with added weight can become a health issue.

[Formosa Neijia]

Walking circles with weights may be seen as advanced practice. But it also mainly trains static strength. The KB, ring, and medicine ball stuff trains mostly dynamic strength and isn't thought of as advanced practice. It's the kind of thing that beginners can and perhaps should do. But there is no limit to where you can take it.

Proper alignment is stressed, however. Notice the Crossfit KB clip in my first post.

Dave C.

[edededed]

I was looking for opinions from various people. That's why I worded it like that. I'm not looking for one answer but diverse opinions. Of course I already know that such stuff "isn't internal."

According to Jarek's interview with Ma Chuanxu (I'm sure you've read it, but: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html), it seems that weights is "internal but not THAT internal"

One of the silliest aspects of CMA is that lifting weight with your genitals is supposedly great but picking up a dumbbell or KB is wrong.

Never really understood that part of CMA, but it seems to be a minority practice (more adherents in Taiwan?). I wouldn't risk myself that way, personally

[chrislomas]

One of the silliest aspects of CMA is that lifting weight with your genitals is supposedly great but picking up a dumbbell or KB is wrong.

This is another quite large generalisation - do you know that people in CMA who do not believe in any weight training also do practice/advocate Weight Swinging (For example Steve Cotter's teacher is Karl Gao who also does Shi Shui). If you do this would be a good point, if not it is a little weaker