Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

[marvin8]

Related to the topic at hand, though, this situation came up at push hands today. Fixed step freestyle. In the last round of the day one of the less conventional regulars threw his right hand on the back of my neck. He established control briefly but my left hand came up and lifted his arm enough to break control and allow me to pull my head around his arm through the gap. I swung my right arm around and pushed on his right arm with both hands threw him out.

So in the context it's presented it does what it says on the tin. I'm sure in a different context a different response would be more appropriate.

Cool, but that's also where you have to tread cautiously - though that's also dependent on what your goals might be of course.. In my case, for a period I probably focused too much on stand up grappling (moving step p/h freestyle if you like ), so got into a bad habit with my head positioning in the clinch. Limited 'games' will do that, it's just how it is. Be it boxing, bjj, wrestling etc. When I started to do more all round sparring with someone with real quality and all round training, it turned out I'd developed a glaringly bad habit I had to sort out and give attention to. Not saying that's you, but just a cautionary tale to watch out for what could turn out as 'bad habits' in other contexts, worth watching out for. Things that become habitual can be a real pain to correct. Doesn't sound like you had to bend too much at the waist to do this, but if you did, just consider the habitual response side of things.

So full disclosure here I haven't been practicing this drill. I just got into a situation at push hands that it seemed to address so I popped it out. It worked as advertised in the context intended. Full stop.

It worked that one time in "push hands." However, it is a bad habit and dangerous to bend too much at the waist in a fight. The neck grab in the OP is weak from that distance. There aren't many reasons to practice compromising structure, when there are better counters.

Most people are right handed. Therefore, grapplers stand with their right foot forward to grab with their right hand. However, most other people will stand in the orthodox stance (left side forward). There are better counters than putting oneself out of position. One can simply push down as you bend at the waist or counter as against a right jab (e.g., right hand, uppercut, etc.).

Going further, let's be realistic. If I never get punched in the face again in my life I'll be perfectly fine with that. The chances of me strapping on gloves and going toe to toe with a Muay Thai expert determined to do me harm are slim to none. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I will never be able to hold my own in a ring with even an amateur kickboxer or on the mat with a blue belt. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

The reality is it can happen in the street. Someone can take advantage of you bending too much at the waist. It doesn't have to be "in a ring against a Muay Thai expert" or "amateur kickboxer."

Some people like to play basketball, I like to play a game called push hands that happens to make use of qualities cultivated by diligent taijiquan practice. And I'm fine with that.

Many people like to improve their game/technique, not make it worse or dangerous.

I do believe, and experience has shown, that those same qualities, among others also cultivated, do give me an advantage in dealing with random people in the wild intent on violence against my person, as well as the cruel hand of random fate with regards to things like slip and fall injuries, but I digress. I'm perfectly fine with all of that.

In practicing a martial art, it's safer to cultivate qualities that work against those that have experience in fighting, rather than a random, inexperienced person.

The opposition is amusing though. "What if they threw a knee?" I mean what if they have fucking chainsaws for arms, maaan. That's not the context or intention. Sure, somebody with excellent reflexes could capitalize on the split second one's face is below the elbow to slam a knee through the right arm, entirely possible if they are fast and strong enough. I'm perfectly fine with that.

. . . or peers giving cautionary advice. Countering a right jab is done many times in combat sports. A reach and neck grab gives that much more time to counter. The boxing example I posted shows how to counter a person who slips. Someone bending at the waist too much gives even more time to counter.

[origami_itto]

The opposition is amusing though. "What if they threw a knee?" I mean what if they have fucking chainsaws for arms, maaan. That's not the context or intention. Sure, somebody with excellent reflexes could capitalize on the split second one's face is below the elbow to slam a knee through the right arm, entirely possible if they are fast and strong enough. I'm perfectly fine with that.

. . . or peers giving cautionary advice. Countering a right jab is done many times in combat sports. A reach and neck grab gives that much more time to counter. The boxing example I posted shows how to counter a person who slips. Someone bending at the waist too much gives even more time to counter.

Cautionary advice that misses the point.

The left hand negates the head control before the "slip" movement begins. Without that factor, I agree, it's a very bad idea as it makes it easier to control you. Like wise bending the spine weakens the trunk and is a bad idea, not as bad as not negating the control. Without the right arm guarding the knee, it's also probably a bad idea in a striking context. Perhaps a different tactic would be appropriate for a different context. Perhaps the tactics more appropriate for those contexts are less appropriate for the context this is intended for. Regardless, I got no skin in the game, just sharing experience.

I mean, it might be easier to take the cautionary advice more to heart if it didn't miss key points of the exercise in its criticism, and if 99% of what's presented on the forum didn't get roundly shat upon.

[marvin8]

The opposition is amusing though. "What if they threw a knee?" I mean what if they have fucking chainsaws for arms, maaan. That's not the context or intention. Sure, somebody with excellent reflexes could capitalize on the split second one's face is below the elbow to slam a knee through the right arm, entirely possible if they are fast and strong enough. I'm perfectly fine with that.

. . . or peers giving cautionary advice. Countering a right jab is done many times in combat sports. A reach and neck grab gives that much more time to counter. The boxing example I posted shows how to counter a person who slips. Someone bending at the waist too much gives even more time to counter.

Cautionary advice that misses the point.

The left hand negates the head control before the "slip" movement begins. Without that factor, I agree, it's a very bad idea as it makes it easier to control you. Like wise bending the spine weakens the trunk and is a bad idea, not as bad as not negating the control. Without the right arm guarding the knee, it's also probably a bad idea in a striking context. Perhaps a different tactic would be appropriate for a different context. Perhaps the tactics more appropriate for those contexts are less appropriate for the context this is intended for. Regardless, I got no skin in the game, just sharing experience.

I mean, it might be easier to take the cautionary advice more to heart if it didn't miss key points of the exercise in its criticism, and if 99% of what's presented on the forum didn't get roundly shat upon.

I may have missed that before replying, after watching again. However, one can still neutralize and counter without extensively, compromising oneself. Here's one example:

[origami_itto]

I may have missed that before replying, after watching again. However, one can still neutralize and counter without extensively, compromising oneself. Here's one example:

You mean by bending at the waist to duck under as the hand on the same side pushes the controlling arm up? What a concept!

[marvin8]

I may have missed that before replying, after watching again. However, one can still neutralize and counter without extensively, compromising oneself. Here's one example:

https://m0.sportsjoe.ie/wp-content/uplo ... ize-15.gif

You mean by bending at the waist to duck under as the hand on the same side pushes the controlling arm up? What a concept!

No, you may have missed it. Nunes controls the arm, pushes, pivots out and doesn't compromise herself as much. Here is the clip again at quarter speed:




I mean by not bending at the waist as much as Sifu Mizner:

[origami_itto]

You're comparing the first part of his exercise to her using a similar skill live, it looks different because it is different but it's based on the same principle

First, ignore the first two sections of the instruction, they are intermediate, not full exercises at all, just stepping Stones to the full exercise. That was actually the primary point to posting this, showing how he breaks down complex movements and layers on the instruction after you're ostensibly comfortable with each component of the movement.

I thought that was obvious but that's the second capture from the first part of instruction with critique that is just not relevant yet to the movement as constructed at that point of the video.

In the final, full version of the exercise, he does not bend as much. The student is still kow towing. He has his left hand on the students right elbow to negate control. His right arm crosses underneath, he doesn't mention knees again because that's not the context but that is a potential block for a quick knee as he bends at the waist to duck under/slip the control.

But I think I'll cheating myself here, clearly you know of a better way to deal with someone grabbing your neck in a push hands context and how to drill it. So show me please what you recommend instead.

[marvin8]

You're comparing the first part of his exercise to her using a similar skill live, it looks different because it is different but it's based on the same principle

First, ignore the first two sections of the instruction, they are intermediate, not full exercises at all, just stepping Stones to the full exercise. That was actually the primary point to posting this, showing how he breaks down complex movements and layers on the instruction after you're ostensibly comfortable with each component of the movement.

I thought that was obvious but that's the second capture from the first part of instruction with critique that is just not relevant yet to the movement as constructed at that point of the video.

In the final, full version of the exercise, he does not bend as much. The student is still kow towing. He has his left hand on the students right elbow to negate control. His right arm crosses underneath, he doesn't mention knees again because that's not the context but that is a potential block for a quick knee as he bends at the waist to duck under/slip the control.

But I think I'll cheating myself here, clearly you know of a better way to deal with someone grabbing your neck in a push hands context and how to drill it. So show me please what you recommend instead.

Thanks for the explanation. I do realize what Adam is doing. I think he is still bending at the waist too much in the final exercise.

I was agreeing with cloudz comment. I meant to reply more to the other statements you made.
An alternative method is what Nunes is doing in the clip above Adam. A way to practice would be through a feeder/receiver drill.

Although, I don't agree with it. I don't want to continue to criticize Adam's exercise. Because, I am not an authority on what is a correct tai chi push hands drill and what isn't.

[origami_itto]

I really don't intend to defend him so much as discuss the principles accurately regardless of the personality attached.

There is definitely room for improvement as far as how one performs the drill but I think that overall this is a very good drill and it's presented well. There are others that I think are better overall, this is more of an edge case, but he hasn't made them public so I'm not at liberty to share.

[Fa Xing]

Honestly, he looks like a beginner because that's how beginners move until you tell them don't bend at the waist, bend the legs.

[wayne hansen]

Have any of those commenting ever trained this exercise with direct physical instruction
Or practiced it on a regular basis

[origami_itto]

Have any of those commenting ever trained this exercise with direct physical instruction
Or practiced it on a regular basis

I've just watched this video and recognized the situation in free push hands so was able to use the technique

[GrahamB]

This happened at the weekend:

https://sports.vice.com/en_ca/article/q ... -argentina

"Walker slapped a double collar tie on the flustered Rountree, a great position for a taller man.

The obvious threat from the double collar tie is the knee up the center and, of course, Rountree did everything in his power to prevent that from happening. Except it was two short elbows to the side of the jaw as Rountree rigidly held his posture that did the American in."

Video:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ColorfulSlimA ... mobile.mp4

Just goes to show what a tricky position it is when applied by a taller person. In that situation, bending forward might not have been a bad idea...

[origami_itto]

There's a lot going on there, though, too, the double collar tie vs single, the size difference. Some variation of the idea might have helped but that was just a bad place to be and barring divine intervention you're proper fucked.

I think it makes the most direct sense in push hands, and then as wayne mentioned in more of a boxing/striking context with some different emphasis as a slipping type movement

[wayne hansen]

Nice clip
Good to see he throws in the rip to the ribs liki I mentioned

[marvin8]

There's a lot going on there, though, too, the double collar tie vs single, the size difference. Some variation of the idea might have helped but that was just a bad place to be and barring divine intervention you're proper fucked.

I think it makes the most direct sense in push hands, and then as wayne mentioned in more of a boxing/striking context with some different emphasis as a slipping type movement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooMjhFToGQw

That guy is not a professional boxer. I wouldn't look to him for proper boxing technique (e.g., slipping, head movement, etc.). Although, you may see other boxers doing this.

Proper slipping and rolling/weaving is not to bend at the waist too much. Adam is bending at the waist too much. Adam can be feinted out of position and hit with an uppercut, etc. One should keep their balance, alignment, zhong ding, not double weight, etc.

Correct slipping, rolling or bob and weaving is to fold/load the kua and/or bend the knees. Weight should transfer from hip to hip, not double weight. One should be in a position to change or counter (simultaneously or after). Here is an explanation of proper defense and being in a position to counter:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkUrxd_lSqY


This drill develops being in position to counter after each defensive move:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce6ZDMV_j_s