Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:03 pm

This isa great exercise but he really does not understand it
It is more about teaching bobbing and weaving
The second hand should be used in a totally different manner
I teach my guys that the guy being circled should throw in a rip to the ribs every now and then
Like much of Huangs pushing drills it is isolated from the San shou two man set
It is used in that as a reply to wild horse and bend back
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby middleway on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:53 am

Even if this is a 'sensitivity' drill, it is inadvertently ingraining a terrible habit. At the start he mentions it is relevant to 'styles that grab the head' but they don't grab the head for the sake of grabbing the head ... they do that ... to do something.

IMO this is born out of the absurd obsession most Taiji people have with not moving their feet. This mindset and focus creates strange methods that have no martial or combative value ... case in point ... this drill from Mr Mizner.

The sort of 'grab' they are displaying is much better negated via a very simply step and change of angle.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:51 am

Static exercises are just the first stage of moving
This exercise is not about grabbing the head it it about leading into a naked choke
It starts to a chop to the side of the neck
The opponent slips to the side
You press down
He ducks to the other side throwing a possible rip to the ribs
The whole exercise should be alive
Here it is not
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:57 am

I'm sure the board at large would be very interested in seeing a video of you performing the exercise properly with aliveness and a rip to the ribs or two. Got vids?
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Rhen on Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:17 am

People seem to miss the point of the technique like hip bump when a mans face is near your crotch.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Did one video in 86
More than enough for one lifetime
Now I just teach face to face
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby shawnsegler on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:48 pm

GrahamB wrote:Must resist uncontrollable urge to shout "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE KNEE TO FACE STRIKE?" ;D

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You mean like this? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUaoHyau7nM
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Fubo on Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:46 pm

If the context of this drill is relative to a grappling context, as was suggested, ducking under the arm while bent forward like that is just asking to be guillotined.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Dmitri on Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:53 pm

middleway wrote:IMO this is born out of the absurd obsession most Taiji people have with not moving their feet. This mindset and focus creates strange methods that have no martial or combative value

^^ this

As others have said, all you need is a tiny step or two, and any of these deadly one-hand-on-neck "situations" where they could "control your structure" are taken care of automatically. One hand on neck means nothing at all, in terms of grappling at least.
Last edited by Dmitri on Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby roger hao on Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:04 pm

This fantasy role play does not allow head butt?
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:31 pm

As I said before this version leaves out a lot that was in Huangs original version
We use both hands,naked chokes, rips to the ribs choke escaped and the opposite circle as well
We played around with this at training last night
Employed sprawl ,stepping and throws
Don't be put off by this version play with it any grappler will get a great deal from it
I am not a grappler and do it in a fully tai chi manner
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby marvin8 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:47 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Static exercises are just the first stage of moving
This exercise is not about grabbing the head it it about leading into a naked choke
It starts to a chop to the side of the neck
The opponent slips to the side
You press down
He ducks to the other side throwing a possible rip to the ribs

The whole exercise should be alive
Here it is not

I'm sure the board at large would be very interested in seeing a video of you performing the exercise properly with aliveness and a rip to the ribs or two. Got vids?

Reminds me of this boxing exercise (not taiji). It teaches neutralizing an opponent's power (force/energy) by head control, disrupting his center and push in the direction of the opponent's momentum, regaining superior position while controlling the distance.

One jabs, sticks, follows and changes depending on how the opponent defends or counters. If the opponent goes straight in,under the jab, one takes the back foot out and pushes opponent down:

Image

If the opponent slips to the outside of the jab, one pivots, turns, shoves opponent in the direction of the opponent's momentum, regaining superior position.. The same applies when the opponent slips to the inside of the jab:

Image


Clip #3:
Image
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:37 am

looks a bit dangerous, vulnarable to the knee.. don't like the leaning over being a part of TCC either. Guess I am used to it being a no no in the style.
He gets into a horrible position and weak structural shape.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:25 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby northern_mantis on Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:30 am

Wow, that is uncomfortable to watch. Even if you practice Tai Chi as a pseudo martial art as it most often is it would still be prudent not to teach really dangerous habits. If your head goes below your opponents neck in clinch you need to overlap those hands and brace for impact!
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:52 pm

The object in tai chi is to stay erect,not leaning right or left etc
Thus the saying yeild only to return
That does not mean we can't do exercises that take us into uncomfortable places
I bet in any real situation you will end up not being where you wishes
The above exercise when done correctly will explore this
I emphasise this is not a very good interpretation of the exercise
I might be wrong but I don't think Huang taught this exercise until quite late in his life
At that point he may not have been as flexible as he had been
I also don't think Adam ever met Huang so I don't think there was any direct transmission
Play with it especially you people who grapple,put up a vid and I will be more than happy to offer any hints I can
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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