Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

[jaime_g]

Play with it especially you people who grapple,put up a vid and I will be more than happy to offer any hints I can

The first problem that I see is that the exercise as presented by Mizner starts with a false premise, forcing you to yield against something that your connection should be able to ignore.

Your partner is grabbing your neck with one hand...where is your suspended head-elevated crown? It should be enough to cancel that one handed neck pull without resisting nor yielding.

[wayne hansen]

Try it with a chop to the side of the neck
One thing about the street I have observed is that anytime someone puts a hand on someone there is movement
No one ever just lets a hand stay there

[Giles]

Like Wayne says, the idea is yielding to return. And yielding while retaining a strong and elastic structure that will, in itself, automatically bring you back into suspended headtop. So not collapsing in the spine or sticking your butt out.

Like I said, this is, or should be, a ‘something already went wrong’ exercise. When you’ve missed other and better counters to a neck grab or similar, this reflex can kick in a split second later. It certainly shouldn’t be trained or ‘sold’ as a primary response to a neck grab or push.

A danger of training this exercise is that it can condition you to bend your neck/head when it’s not necessary. Very bad. And it won’t work if someone has already got an actual clinch on you.
An advantage of training this exercise is that if your head is already being pulled or pushed down (yeah, sh** happens) it can get you out and up again and moving into a counter in one quick reflex move.

[cloudz]

You can do the whole apologetics thing, I get it - but really there are better responses than what's shown. And sure maybe the true original is much better.
If there is another Huang group doing it would be nice to see.. I like a lot of the other Huang P/H drills.
In boxing as shown above, this kind of thing won't matter - no knees. In wrestling putting your head where it can be struck easily by a knee won't matter - though getting into a shit structure would.

But tai chi has knees in it so it should matter. Play that same thing with cockeral on one leg as a direct response back. Knee straight in the face is the outcome.
What's the point in really defending this when you can come up with better responses. Modification might make this ok. For a start don't bend forward at the waist. Maybe use the knees to duck downward and quickly rotate around at the neck and roll your head under/past whilst using your hand to guide the arm up or even chin na directly against the wrist from there. Something like that might have it's place - but I'm just thinking about it on the fly. It needs trying..

But sometimes in these kind of drills it seems to be yield out for its own sake and never mind other concerns. What's shown is just not up to scratch as is for me.

[Fa Xing]

I'm sure the board at large would be very interested in seeing a video of you performing the exercise properly with aliveness and a rip to the ribs or two. Got vids?

A case of mistaken identity.

[wayne hansen]

What is that about

[origami_itto]

I'm sure the board at large would be very interested in seeing a video of you performing the exercise properly with aliveness and a rip to the ribs or two. Got vids?

I got your e-mail ya fucking sick fuck, I assure you it wouldn't even get that far. LOL

I didn't send you any email. I don't have your email address. The only place I use this name is to post directly to the message board or in private messages using the site messaging system. If someone has contacted you outside of this board with this user name, it is an impostor. One of my admirers, most likely. They are legion.

Related to the topic at hand, though, this situation came up at push hands today. Fixed step freestyle. In the last round of the day one of the less conventional regulars threw his right hand on the back of my neck. He established control briefly but my left hand came up and lifted his arm enough to break control and allow me to pull my head around his arm through the gap. I swung my right arm around and pushed on his right arm with both hands threw him out.

So in the context it's presented it does what it says on the tin. I'm sure in a different context a different response would be more appropriate.

[origami_itto]

What is that about

Some users have sent me private messages concerning someone contacting them outside of the site using this user name. If anybody hears from "me" using the name oragami_itto anywhere but directly on this site, it's just not the real thing.

[Bao]

What is that about

Some users have sent me private messages concerning someone contacting them outside of the site using this user name. If anybody hears from "me" using the name oragami_itto anywhere but directly on this site, it's just not the real thing.

Didn’t think it was you. Thought directly that it must be someone who has mental health issues.

....Otherwise you really need to cut down on the booze.

[Fa Xing]

I'm sure the board at large would be very interested in seeing a video of you performing the exercise properly with aliveness and a rip to the ribs or two. Got vids?

I got your e-mail ya fucking sick fuck, I assure you it wouldn't even get that far. LOL

I didn't send you any email. I don't have your email address. The only place I use this name is to post directly to the message board or in private messages using the site messaging system. If someone has contacted you outside of this board with this user name, it is an impostor. One of my admirers, most likely. They are legion.

Related to the topic at hand, though, this situation came up at push hands today. Fixed step freestyle. In the last round of the day one of the less conventional regulars threw his right hand on the back of my neck. He established control briefly but my left hand came up and lifted his arm enough to break control and allow me to pull my head around his arm through the gap. I swung my right arm around and pushed on his right arm with both hands threw him out.

So in the context it's presented it does what it says on the tin. I'm sure in a different context a different response would be more appropriate.

If that's the case, then I apologize for my comment.

[origami_itto]

No worries, xing

[cloudz]

Related to the topic at hand, though, this situation came up at push hands today. Fixed step freestyle. In the last round of the day one of the less conventional regulars threw his right hand on the back of my neck. He established control briefly but my left hand came up and lifted his arm enough to break control and allow me to pull my head around his arm through the gap. I swung my right arm around and pushed on his right arm with both hands threw him out.

So in the context it's presented it does what it says on the tin. I'm sure in a different context a different response would be more appropriate.

Cool, but that's also where you have to tread cautiously - though that's also dependent on what your goals might be of course.. In my case, for a period I probably focused too much on stand up grappling (moving step p/h freestyle if you like ), so got into a bad habit with my head positioning in the clinch. Limited 'games' will do that, it's just how it is. Be it boxing, bjj, wrestling etc. When I started to do more all round sparring with someone with real quality and all round training, it turned out I'd developed a glaringly bad habit I had to sort out and give attention to. Not saying that's you, but just a cautionary tale to watch out for what could turn out as 'bad habits' in other contexts, worth watching out for. Things that become habitual can be a real pain to correct. Doesn't sound like you had to bend too much at the waist to do this, but if you did, just consider the habitual response side of things.

[Overlord]

He lives in Thailand so should play play with Muaythai people more often.
It’s good to play with different arts.

[origami_itto]

Related to the topic at hand, though, this situation came up at push hands today. Fixed step freestyle. In the last round of the day one of the less conventional regulars threw his right hand on the back of my neck. He established control briefly but my left hand came up and lifted his arm enough to break control and allow me to pull my head around his arm through the gap. I swung my right arm around and pushed on his right arm with both hands threw him out.

So in the context it's presented it does what it says on the tin. I'm sure in a different context a different response would be more appropriate.

Cool, but that's also where you have to tread cautiously - though that's also dependent on what your goals might be of course.. In my case, for a period I probably focused too much on stand up grappling (moving step p/h freestyle if you like ), so got into a bad habit with my head positioning in the clinch. Limited 'games' will do that, it's just how it is. Be it boxing, bjj, wrestling etc. When I started to do more all round sparring with someone with real quality and all round training, it turned out I'd developed a glaringly bad habit I had to sort out and give attention to. Not saying that's you, but just a cautionary tale to watch out for what could turn out as 'bad habits' in other contexts, worth watching out for. Things that become habitual can be a real pain to correct. Doesn't sound like you had to bend too much at the waist to do this, but if you did, just consider the habitual response side of things.

So full disclosure here I haven't been practicing this drill. I just got into a situation at push hands that it seemed to address so I popped it out. It worked as advertised in the context intended. Full stop.

Going further, let's be realistic. If I never get punched in the face again in my life I'll be perfectly fine with that. The chances of me strapping on gloves and going toe to toe with a Muay Thai expert determined to do me harm are slim to none. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I will never be able to hold my own in a ring with even an amateur kickboxer or on the mat with a blue belt. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

Some people like to play basketball, I like to play a game called push hands that happens to make use of qualities cultivated by diligent taijiquan practice. And I'm fine with that.

I do believe, and experience has shown, that those same qualities, among others also cultivated, do give me an advantage in dealing with random people in the wild intent on violence against my person, as well as the cruel hand of random fate with regards to things like slip and fall injuries, but I digress. I'm perfectly fine with all of that.

The opposition is amusing though. "What if they threw a knee?" I mean what if they have fucking chainsaws for arms, maaan. That's not the context or intention. Sure, somebody with excellent reflexes could capitalize on the split second one's face is below the elbow to slam a knee through the right arm, entirely possible if they are fast and strong enough. I'm perfectly fine with that.

Perhaps I was in the wrong for tacking clinch defense on the end since he does not mention the clinch at all. I just figured it would attract more interest, and it did.

[wayne hansen]

Just put knees into the exercise if that is a worry