Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Fa Xing on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:32 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:Something you should understand about Thai Boxers especially is that they are very good at getting a clinch by compromising the structure on a guy that is standing with the spine straight up, and that they will use one attempt as a set up for another attempt using another angle. If you believe that you could easily raise up to a standing position if your back is already compromised you are just fooling yourself. If you believe that just standing there with a a straight spine will help you are also just fooling yourself. They won't freeze just because you try to keep your back straight. A whole lot of good martial artists and MMA fighters practice Muay Thai strategy and know everything about good and bad defences.

Maybe not the perfect vid, but at least a few examples here:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bS47tZ3ej9A


It's also unlikely the you can just push one of their arms while in full plum over your head so easily as in fa xing's video. If you're talking real clinch then you've got pressure against the back of your head, not neck, pulling it down.
In the original video, the complete exercise involves three key points.

1. Same side hand lifts with tiger mouth at elbow
2. Fold at kua with spine straight to change the angle of the contact point and slip out
3. Opposite side arm comes across to attach and attack through the originally clinching arm.

You really need all three elements in some fashion to make it effective


Right, of course, but this is a demo of technique and not live clinch sparring. However, I agree that against a high-level amatuer or pro, it will be a hard fight but that's to be expected. I just find it interesting that we go from Mizner's clip to mine and go 'well, against a real MT fighter....' I've done MT before (hence I know coaches that I can ask and get their opinion), and Tim teaches MMA/BJJ amatuers and pros, so.... ::)

All three of those elements were definitely there. In fact, in the traditional part of the instruction, that's what I taught first.
Last edited by Fa Xing on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:26 pm

I must have missed it. What I did see was an improperly applied full plum clinch that you just lifted out of the way.

Which was easy because it's a bad clinch, right?

I also thought I saw you specifically dismiss any sort of folding of the waist or kua (though in not so many words).

Adam's example, as I mentioned earlier, is probably best not described as a clinch, but a single tie.

I'd love to hear your MT friend's honest opinion of the technique demoed here. T could revolutionize Thai boxing.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:46 pm

Once again I note that if you pull up straight against someone with both hands locked around your neck you are just asking for their forehead across the bridge of your nose
Ito I am not saying the hands don't cover but they don't dislodge the arms
The same way if you bob and weave to avoid a roundhouse punch you don't make the primary ovgective to apply the hands
I ask once more have you been taught and practiced this exercise with all it's subtleties and variations with a competent instructor
Or are you just going on a clip that is not d one very well
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:51 pm

If you're asking me I answered that question a while back, but for the sake of community I'll repeat myself.

My experience with this exercise is watching this video, participating in this discussion, using the movement practiced in the drill during push hands, and yes now a couple minutes this last Sunday actually practicing the drill with someone much better than me who is also seeing it for the first time.

So any additional information that you in your 30 years experience would be helpful. Simply hinting that you know better but not demonstrating or explaining any better is, respectfully, not much use to anything but your own ego.

I like what I can get out of this, but you say there's more, so let's explore it.

The way I see the left hand isn't dislodging but dividing the applied pressure between the neck and left hand and "pinning" the right arm there. Similar to one of the Split drills he teaches (you might know from Huang's system), it doesn't push the arm up and away so much as sit there and keep it from moving to follow the head as it dips under. Like a pick and roll in basketball.

Context is everything, if you're bobbing and weaving, sure you're not throwing your hands up there. If you are catching the attack before it lands, maybe that's a better idea. If you're approaching it as a boxing drill then yeah that makes much more sense.

If you're doing push hands and somebody slaps a hand on your neck, what do you do? This? Something else?
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:51 pm

I don't know which one of Huangs split drills you are talking about
I have tried to explain as best I can if I have failed it is my fault
It's not about ego the only reason I mentioned the 30 year thing is to give a timeline
I am only trying to defend the exercise because it is not done very well here
All of Huangs pushing exercises are excellent as are his 5 loosening exercises but I don't see many do them well
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:54 pm

Then it’s too bad the original exercises are not out there on the web so anyone doing them mistakingly can be correctly corrected. And since it’s like this Mizner might actually be doing it all right.……… Maybe there’s some sort of a pact within the Huang linage not to put things freely out there, maybe Mizner has broken this pact and that’s why he is treated as an tai-chi heretic……hell, he might be the next one one up on one of those Graham heretic podcasts
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:43 am

wayne hansen wrote:All of Huangs pushing exercises are excellent as are his 5 loosening exercises but I don't see many do them well



I would think the point is to see the result of the exercises not judge them by how well they are done or not.
The point of an exercise is to enable or develop a skill set that is so far yet to be shown in real-time or in action.


Boxers are not judged by how well they skip a rope or hit a bag.,
They are judge by what they can do in the ring.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby cloudz on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:10 am

Fa Xing wrote:Here's my take on the subject of clinching, I only discussed the techniques to escape. No specific drills.




liked it
thanks
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:44 am

wayne hansen wrote:I don't know which one of Huangs split drills you are talking about
I have tried to explain as best I can if I have failed it is my fault
It's not about ego the only reason I mentioned the 30 year thing is to give a timeline
I am only trying to defend the exercise because it is not done very well here
All of Huangs pushing exercises are excellent as are his 5 loosening exercises but I don't see many do them well


Man I'm just trying to pump you for info bro. :D

The split drills he doesn't really break into three parts but where I am in the course so far he presents with three variations. Basically the variations are from the left, center, and right, splitting a double handed push against the right arm with the right foot forward. The left is kind of like roll back? You split on their outside right with your left. The middle is each hand takes a hand, and the right you place your left hand outside of their left hand and it sort of feel like what it does most there is just get in the way. Provides some feedback so as to create the illusion nothing has changed but doesn't really go anywhere at first.

Like a pick and roll, where a member of your basketball team plants themselves outside the peripheral vision of the person covering you and then you run so that they would have to run over your team mate in order to keep the coverage on, so you can break and score.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:21 am

oragami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I don't know which one of Huangs split drills you are talking about
I have tried to explain as best I can if I have failed it is my fault
It's not about ego the only reason I mentioned the 30 year thing is to give a timeline
I am only trying to defend the exercise because it is not done very well here
All of Huangs pushing exercises are excellent as are his 5 loosening exercises but I don't see many do them well


Man I'm just trying to pump you for info bro. :D

The split drills he doesn't really break into three parts but where I am in the course so far he presents with three variations. Basically the variations are from the left, center, and right, splitting a double handed push against the right arm with the right foot forward. The left is kind of like roll back? You split on their outside right with your left. The middle is each hand takes a hand, and the right you place your left hand outside of their left hand and it sort of feel like what it does most there is just get in the way. Provides some feedback so as to create the illusion nothing has changed but doesn't really go anywhere at first.

Like a pick and roll, where a member of your basketball team plants themselves outside the peripheral vision of the person covering you and then you run so that they would have to run over your team mate in order to keep the coverage on, so you can break and score.

Here's a few wrestling versions without double weighting.

5 Ways to Defeat a Collar Tie Up

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2OEJQ4p36A
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:46 am

It's smart to watch how people who actually need to get out of such situations have been doing it. Wrestlers may use techniques that differ from muay thai, but rely on similar principles. Notably, they do not rely on any other than common physical principles and body methods. So, "internal" and "external" martial artists can speak the same basic language, and still remain free to add qi, ki, internal strength, or whatever they focus on differently. Imo, it's not a mater of looking for the move in tcc, bg, or xy that approximates a wrestling or muay thai technique.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby Fa Xing on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 pm

cloudz wrote:
Fa Xing wrote:Here's my take on the subject of clinching, I only discussed the techniques to escape. No specific drills.




liked it
thanks


No problem, thank you! :)
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:40 pm

windwalker wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:All of Huangs pushing exercises are excellent as are his 5 loosening exercises but I don't see many do them well



I would think the point is to see the result of the exercises not judge them by how well they are done or not.
The point of an exercise is to enable or develop a skill set that is so far yet to be shown in real-time or in action.


Boxers are not judged by how well they skip a rope or hit a bag.,
They are judge by what they can do in the ring.



This statement shows you haven't trained these exercises or have been shown them in an incorrect manner
They are the building blocks of the system
I don't say you judge tai chi on them but if you do them poorly it shows
It is easy to deskill students by showing them how to do these exercises incorrectly
They become your pushing fodder for life
If you think combat efficiency from incorrect training I think you have been mislead
You would judge a boxer by the fact he misses the bag each time he punches ,can't hold his guard up or trips when skipping
You would never put him in the ring

Ito I know what you mean by the splitting exercises now
There are two double hand ones from below
One abrupt energy one from above
One opposing hand one ,one up one down
Single hand version
One wiping both hands from left and one from right
One chopping to the ribs
There are others that could be considered part of this and I'm sure there are others I just can't remember at the time
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm

wayne hansen wrote:

This statement shows you haven't trained these exercises or have been shown them in an incorrect manner
They are the building blocks of the system


There are other systems that use other types of training
building the same skill sets.


I don't say you judge tai chi on them but if you do them poorly it shows
It is easy to deskill students by showing them how to do these exercises incorrectly
They become your pushing fodder for life
If you think combat efficiency from incorrect training I think you have been mislead

combat efficiency comes from those who engage in it using what ever method they train in.
You would judge a boxer by the fact he misses the bag each time he punches ,can't hold his guard up or trips when skipping
You would never put him in the ring


They are judged by what they do in the ring...regardless of method used or efficiency with
them in developing skill sets.

It has yet to be shown the practice of push hands, as a practice is conductive to real world usage skills
that can be used against trained/skilled exponents using other methods/styles ect.

Note that even in examples used most are from those that actually use
what ever method developed with the efficiency gauged by those its being used against.

It's smart to watch how people who actually need to get out of such situations have been doing it.


exactly
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands - Head Pull (Clinch defense)

Postby cloudz on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:52 am

Wayne wrote:They become your pushing fodder for life


Let's remind ourselves - shall we - that Huang was hardly a stranger to "pushing fodder".
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