BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:33 am

Hi Graham,

I really enjoy the podcasts, Damon is a fountain of knowledge on the subject, he reminds me of my own Japanese arts teacher who had a similar depth of knowledge after many years in Japan. One thing i will say is that there is alot of 'opinion' in the history coming from Damon (as is to be expected). He is absolutely spot on with alot of it of course, but is also drawing conclusions along paths that are impossible to know.

But I suppose it's our most controversial episode


One thing i wonder is, what makes you think the information is Controversial? Has anyone refuted it?

I think maybe as someone new to the history of these arts you may have been suprised, but for pretty much everyone i know who has researched the styles there was nothing shocking in there. It certainly wasnt to me and i sent the episode to well known Aikido researcher and blogger Christopher Li who i have a little contact with, and he said it wasn't controvertial either.

Takedas history and life is documented in a number of places, Ellis Amdurs book is one source, but i would also recommend the many articles on Aikido Journal. Stan Pranin is perhaps the greatest Aikido Researcher and he delved very deeply into the history of Daito Ryu.

Keep up the good work mate. Really looking forward to the series on Chinese MA.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:43 am

Hi Chris,

Glad you're liking the podcast. Damon is quite exceptional in a lot of things I find, particularly martial arts :) Of course, he's got his opinions, but without them I think it would be boring :)

I'm finding the Han dynasty quite heavy going at the moment, so I've persuaded him to do an episode on Mongolian wrestling next, as a bit of light relief. That should be fun. Apparently, he has a cool story about how he learned it.

I think that all the things about Aikido and Morehei Ueshiba are already out there, but people do a very good job of air brushing it from history. If you look at his wikipedia page, for example, you find no information on the war crimes he was personally involved with, and as for the Unity 731 stuff - the really sick stuff - there are very few people that know about his links with it. It's not exactly secret, but you could say it is "hidden in plain sight".

The other controversial aspect is that Damon sees no evidence that Ueshiba had any special power at all (as he says in the podcast). In almost all writing about him, you find his martial skills tend to be assumed as a given, especially by Aikido practitioners. So effectively he's saying it's all built on something that just doesn't work in reality. Its purpose was to recruit people into Omotokyo. Effectively Aikido IS Omotokyo. The emperor has no clothes.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:59 am

I think that all the things about Aikido and Morehei Ueshiba are already out there, but people do a very good job of air brushing it from history. If you look at his wikipedia page, for example, you find no information on the war crimes he was personally involved with, and as for the Unity 731 stuff - the really sick stuff - there are very few people that know about his links with it. It's not exactly secret, but you could say it is "hidden in plain sight".


Yes very true. But i also think that people practicing today are not bound by the history of the style or the founders beliefs, nor should they be. Those people are dead, those times are past. It can be hardly said that most practitioners today relate to the founders war crimes, there is no reason for them to. Perhaps bowing to his image could be in bad taste! haha.

The other controversial aspect is that Damon sees no evidence that Ueshiba had any special power at all (as he says in the podcast). In almost all writing about him, you find his martial skills tend to be assumed as a given, especially by Aikido practitioners. So effectively he's saying it's all built on something that just doesn't work in reality. Its purpose was to recruit people into Omotokyo. Effectively Aikido IS Omotokyo.


Yes i would disagree with Damon there. There are numerous account of people who were not involved in or converted to OmotoKyo commenting on Ueshibas skill. Then you have people like Gozo Shioda an UchiDeshi of Ueshiba who showed no signs of being in the Omotokyo. If Aikido = OmotoKyo surely live in disciples would have converted.

Of course there is actually no evidence ... there is no evidence that Guo Yun Shen was skilled ... it is all just heresay and opinion. Which, as you say, is what makes it all so fun.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby Graculus on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:08 am

Sorry, I posted this in the other discussion by mistake, (with Graham, Damon and podcasts popping up, you can't really blame me), so I'm putting it in here as it makes more sense:

For all those who want a bit of reading, let me recommend Peter Goldsbury's extremely thorough essay series (now up to 29 of them), all fully referenced and foot-noted, several thousand words each, complete with reader comments, on the Ueshiba, Takeda Sokaku and things related to the development of aikido.
The series title is Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation and is available at the aikiweb site:
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:12 am

Chris - I think the point is that Aikido = Omotokyo, but in reality, people wanted Aikido, not Omotokyo (best-laid plans and all that...). It didn't really work as a recruiting tool, so towards the end of his life he just accepted it and taught Aikido. And of course, once he died the main link to Omotokyo was severed. And Aikido goes on without him. It became its own thing I guess.

I don't know myself if Ueshiba had any power... but I don't discount Damon's opinion there. Of course, there are all sorts of writings by famous martial artists about how good he was, yet... You've got to think of all those political fascist connections he had, and also the cult-like environment. Who knows. I don't. You'd have to have met him I guess. Damon didn't meet him, but he's spent time analysing videos of him (as he said in the podcast).

Funny story: Damon actually did MMA for a year, somewhere in Norfolk I think. After he'd been to about 3 classes they decided the whole class would stop doing striking and focus only on groundwork grappling going forward - lol ;D So, he knows about power.

Anyway, that's his opinion.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:12 am

Graculus wrote:Sorry, I posted this in the other discussion by mistake, (with Graham, Damon and podcasts popping up, you can't really blame me), so I'm putting it in here as it makes more sense:

For all those who want a bit of reading, let me recommend Peter Goldsbury's extremely thorough essay series (now up to 29 of them), all fully referenced and foot-noted, several thousand words each, complete with reader comments, on the Ueshiba, Takeda Sokaku and things related to the development of aikido.
The series title is Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation and is available at the aikiweb site:
http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/


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Thanks - I'll check it out.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:45 am

t didn't really work as a recruiting tool, so towards the end of his life he just accepted it and taught Aikido.


Gozo Shioda is a pre-war uchideshi. So this would have been early when the Omoto link was very much still at the forefront.

Of course, there are all sorts of writings by famous martial artists about how good he was, yet... You've got to think of all those political fascist connections he had, and also the cult-like environment. Who knows. I don't.


Yes i agree. I dont think we will ever know. We can look at some of his students and see if there is anything remaining of a functional system. Shioda's style, the Yoshinkan is used by the Tokyo Riot Police to this day. No garantee of efficiency, but there are many stories about it being tested in anger by that group.

On the whole i agree entirely with Damons assessment of Aikido as a martial art though it must be said. He is spot on in his primary analysis of most ways in which it is expressed.

I dont know about Damons power. The stories are good from his students though! :P
Last edited by middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:50 am

Oh the irony, yes - I think Damon only teaches martial arts to get people into his Shamanism, which is his real interest.

You can see the parallels ;D
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby middleway on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:56 am

Oh the irony, yes - I think Damon only teaches martial arts to get people into his Shamanism, which is his real interest.

You can see the parallels ;D


hehe. ;) Thanks for the discussion mate.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby vagabond on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:42 am

sorry, i was thinking of a vid those guys did on irimi nage. i think it still pretty much pertains though. kotegaeshi, like a rear naked choke, is all about the setup. as to fine motor skills and percentage, that's never been my experience, and that's what training is for
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:07 pm

This illustrates a problem with practicing grabbing, wrapping, reaching, chasing, etc., a punch—that an opponent does not retract.

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Published on Jan 16, 2019

After training MMA intensively for 3 months I've finally found an Aikido technique which works in MMA and now is used even by my coaches. This Aikido technique is called Aikido Koteageshi and in MMA I use it when my sparring partner throws a one two.

Do you have Aikido techniques that work in MMA? Did you pull this Aikido technique in MMA sparring yourself? Let me know in the comments.

Check coach Eddie Ziegler's YouTube Channel ForRealFightMoves: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi0e...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ34NtCbeJE
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby everything on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:40 pm

it would certainly be something if some or more "dead" and "traditional", "not alive" techniques can work against full sport type resistance and quickly retracting strikes. ... the video seems persuasive at first ...
Last edited by everything on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby vagabond on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:44 am

why do i feel as if it's already thoroughly understood by all involved parties that snatching a punch out of the air is a no go? when has anyone ever said "if i can't set up my ezekiel off an entry that requires me to catch a housefly by the wings with chopsticks it's useless"?
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby everything on Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:54 pm

lol yes it turned out to be a bit of a prank ("experiment")
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:12 pm

vagabond wrote:why do i feel as if it's already thoroughly understood by all involved parties that snatching a punch out of the air is a no go? when has anyone ever said "if i can't set up my ezekiel off an entry that requires me to catch a housefly by the wings with chopsticks it's useless"?


I don't know about "snatching a punch out of the air" but I've never really had much trouble bridging off of a punch. If you block forearm to forearm palm facing you, then overturn the palm with a forward and down sort of motion like in say Tzuann Chuan from xingyi, and follow their forearm you sort of automatically stop at the wrist and can move to whatever technique comes next, play guitar, single whip, raise hands, etc, depending on if you want a come-along or a strike. If they're trying to retract the punch that can just help pull them out of their root and get better control/keep them unsteady. Street clothes and no gloves makes it a bit easier than in a sport setting.
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