Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:47 am

oragami_itto wrote:I'm sure you did. What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part. I'm sure your knowledge and method is superior.

. . . This is all a mental and physical process that requires a certain amount of developed mind-body connection that most people don't have just walking in off the street. It's slow in training but fast in application.

Do you (or anyone else) believe Chen Ziqiang, Wang Yan or other push hands players "guide the qi through the proper sequence" in competition?

If so, do you have a video of these "distinctly different results?" If you don't believe they do, why not?
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:04 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'm sure you did. What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part. I'm sure your knowledge and method is superior.

. . . This is all a mental and physical process that requires a certain amount of developed mind-body connection that most people don't have just walking in off the street. It's slow in training but fast in application.

Do you (or anyone else) believe Chen Ziqiang, Wang Yan or other push hands players "guide the qi through the proper sequence" in competition?

I wouldn't presume to be privy to their methods.
If so, do you have a video of these "distinctly different results?" If you don't believe they do, why not?

It wouldn't be very exciting or useful. Just one time a particular body shape will produce the intended result, another time it will not. The external appearance is the same, but the internal process differs. There's no way to demonstrate it effectively that I've seen so far. At least none that most people will accept. Being a subjective experience at a certain point you have to simply take someone's word that a certain thing is happening until you can experience or express it yourself. To that end there is already much better video than I could produce available that I'm sure you've already seen.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby everything on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:02 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'm sure you did. What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part. I'm sure your knowledge and method is superior.

. . . This is all a mental and physical process that requires a certain amount of developed mind-body connection that most people don't have just walking in off the street. It's slow in training but fast in application.

Do you (or anyone else) believe Chen Ziqiang, Wang Yan or other push hands players "guide the qi through the proper sequence" in competition?

I wouldn't presume to be privy to their methods.
If so, do you have a video of these "distinctly different results?" If you don't believe they do, why not?

It wouldn't be very exciting or useful. Just one time a particular body shape will produce the intended result, another time it will not. The external appearance is the same, but the internal process differs. There's no way to demonstrate it effectively that I've seen so far. At least none that most people will accept. Being a subjective experience at a certain point you have to simply take someone's word that a certain thing is happening until you can experience or express it yourself. To that end there is already much better video than I could produce available that I'm sure you've already seen.


most people (even on an "internal" forum) are not interested in "internal".
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:40 pm

Bao wrote:Earlier at .55 he creates a reaction by a downward pushing movement. At 1.34 He just follows the gap, filling in the empty space by following the opponent's own movement. Here he does not initiate anything and does not provoke a reaction.


This highlights that there are different ways of interpreting what one sees. At :55, I simply see him pushing the partner: the partner hasn't provided anything, the partner is just being compliantly being pushed backwards. At 1:34, I see the partner's elbows retracted near his ribs and Mr. Rasmus, essentially, preventing him from advancing as the partner attempts to straighten his arms/extend his elbows. Mr. Rasmus then "helps" the partner to the side. I don't see "gaps" being filled. What he "initiates" is providing a non-moving point of contact that when the partner extends his elbows, dislodges the partner. Once dislodged ("root" broken), one can direct the partner as desired.

I'm not saying one interpretation is right and others wrong: Mr. Rasmus provides his interpretation of what he's doing as being about mind, qi and jin.

One could have an interesting discussion about why different viewers interpret the same phenomena differently and explain it differently, but that is a different discussion.


If you are good at just filling the gaps, you never need to initiate any kind of reaction.


I agree, but don't think that is what was demonstrated in this video.

What you showed in your clips is more or less just the demonstration of two bodies of mass colliding with each other, though one mass is lower and moves under the other one. The less stable mass will obviously bounce away.


Let's say that that is entirely true. What, then, is the "take-away" from that exercise? Here are a few things:

1. "length" matters. All things equal, the longer stance will win.
2. An introduction to how one can use one's mass/weight to effect.
3. Timing matters.
4. Position matters.

I think these are good basic things to know regardless of "internal" or "external" martial arts. In my opinion, the exercise is a simple, explicit way of feeling that first-hand. (But, to feel that, one has to perform the exercise in the right way: many students in the video clips were doing something else.)
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:48 pm

oragami_itto wrote:It wouldn't be very exciting or useful. Just one time a particular body shape will produce the intended result, another time it will not. The external appearance is the same, but the internal process differs. There's no way to demonstrate it effectively that I've seen so far. At least none that most people will accept. Being a subjective experience at a certain point you have to simply take someone's word that a certain thing is happening until you can experience or express it yourself.


Just for fun, try this at home.

Stand in a bow stance with your arm is a typical "Peng position", you arm at chest height, rounded, palm towards your chest, fingers pointing horizontally. Have a partner push on your "Peng" arm. Maintain your arm position against the push.

While your partner is pushing, while maintaining your same posture, instead of having your fingers pointing horizontally, extend and arch them away from you so that they now point towards your opponent, particularly towards your partners face. Otherwise the posture remains the same, but for the relatively small change of the fingers' direction. Most observers won't notice the relatively subtle change in finger position. Don't bend your wrist: the change is in the fingers, though it has some influence on much of the arm.

What, if anything, do you feel regarding your partner's push? What, if anything, does your partner feel?
Last edited by charles on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:11 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
If so, do you have a video of these "distinctly different results?" If you don't believe they do, why not?

It wouldn't be very exciting or useful. Just one time a particular body shape will produce the intended result, another time it will not. The external appearance is the same, but the internal process differs. There is no way to demonstrate it effectively that I've seen so far. At least none that most people will accept. Being a subjective experience at a certain point you have to simply take someone's word that a certain thing is happening until you can experience or express it yourself. To that end there is already much better video than I could produce available that I'm sure you've already seen.

"It would be exciting to see the external appearance" of an IMAist "float out without much effort" a non-compliant opponent in a push hands or fight competition. Why isn't there a video of an IMAists demonstrating this? Is it because these skills are imperceptible or there are few if any that can apply these skills in a martial context?

In the following video, Rasmus demonstrates how rollback energy and rebounding force can be used to set up a KO in boxing. However as I mentioned, "external" boxers use no touch to double weight their opponents.
marvin8 wrote:It's seen in sports where there is an opponent. Before "touch,"' a change in oneself can create a reaction in the opponent: putting one a step ahead of the opponent.

Starting @ 3:08, Rasmus says, ". . . For that moment when that balance pulls out of his body, that's when he's very, very vulnerable. . . . You look at most of the knockouts they're having in boxing. You can see the person's balance is slightly out. Very rarely do people get KO'd when they are in a neutralizing position. . . ."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A7WmCr1Skw&t=3m35s
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:49 am

Charles wrote:
What you showed in your clips is more or less just the demonstration of two bodies of mass colliding with each other, though one mass is lower and moves under the other one. The less stable mass will obviously bounce away.


Let's say that that is entirely true. What, then, is the "take-away" from that exercise? Here are a few things:

1. "length" matters. All things equal, the longer stance will win.
2. An introduction to how one can use one's mass/weight to effect.
3. Timing matters.
4. Position matters.

I think these are good basic things to know regardless of "internal" or "external" martial arts. In my opinion, the exercise is a simple, explicit way of feeling that first-hand. (But, to feel that, one has to perform the exercise in the right way: many students in the video clips were doing something else.)


Sure, nothing bad with that. Why I said that I didn't like the clips is more because I believe that it's better to practice these things in another way. I prefer a slower, more controlled, detailed way, going step by step. Then when you get the details correct you can speed it up. If you teach this way here, the students have very little control of what they are doing and won't understand how to follow if the opponent changes or does something unexpected. It's the wrong path to go? You learn a technique that work when everything looks like what they are used to, but the knowledge of principles and how to use them in different situations won't be there.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:10 am

Cool exercise, neat video. Thanks for sharing, y'all.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:02 am

Bao wrote:Why I said that I didn't like the clips is more because I believe that it's better to practice these things in another way. I prefer a slower, more controlled, detailed way, going step by step... You learn a technique that work when everything looks like what they are used to, but the knowledge of principles and how to use them in different situations won't be there.


That certainly seems like a valid point.

How would you go about teaching what you describe? Any specific exercises?
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:44 am

charles wrote:How would you go about teaching what you describe? Any specific exercises?


Hard to be very explicit. For returning a push or directing a body when receiving a punch, I would make the students stand properly, relax, let them stand straight while just turning around the centreline. And I would do it rather slow to have them to practice to follow the exact speed of the opponent, acting as a mirror. If there is horizontal movement, follow that. If there is a vertical movement, follow and sink further. Every step and every detail must be perfected before speeding it up.

My first teacher could do everything you see Mark Rasmus do and many things more. But as he was always very humble and low keyed, he would not acknowledge that he had any skill. I practiced off and on with him for 20 years. He would always start every exercise with the basics, return to basics and always nag about small details concerning basics. A little bit of leaning, using arms too much, not relax enough, and he would always notice mistakes and let us become aware of them. We practiced a lot of this kind of exercise, returning force, re-directing, how to catch the balance instantly. Many times through the years we did the same or very similar exercises, but there were always a small details that was new or different, or sometimes we had to isolate principles in new different ways. As I was first and very best student, I remember a few times he had me demonstrate these things in full speed. He would have the other students come running at me as fast and hard as they could or wanted, and I would demonstrate how to return or direct the force away effortlessly. Once, one of the girls in the class didn't come straight towards me, but missed and didn't push directly at my center. Instead of returning her force towards her, I followed her movements instinctively and she fell down to my right side and she hurt her back taking the fall. ...Fond memories from classes that not only gave me confidence in my art, but gave the other students confidence as well.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:26 pm

hmm, the very best student hurting the girls..........sorry, could not resist, take it as a (bad) joke. a monty python episode came to mind, boxer(john cleese) beting up young schoolgirl in the ring
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:08 am

She had to rest a bit, but nothing serious. We usually didn’t hurt ourself in class. Happened very seldom. The worst accident I remember in this class was my own teacher who hurt his himself trying to demonstrate some flexible move he had watched William Chen do in a seminar... ;D He had trouble for 6 month after that.

I met the person I spoke about for one or two years ago. She’s about 45 now. Always when I see her I am surprised how young and healthy she looks. There’s something to Tai Chi practice alright.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:01 am

charles wrote:I wasn't able to find the video I was looking for. However, here are two of students practicing a basic exercise that explicitly teaches the skill in the OP video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdZNK_MCiKo

The two guys at about :45 understood the exercise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieqTgBMBQc

In short, in the exercise, your partner pushes you three times. You don't do anything but get pushed. You study the timing of the pushes. On the fourth, you catch the partner's push before it has fully "arrived". The result is that the partner pushes himself backwards as he "extends"/"finishes" the push. It's all in the timing and relative position and is not difficult to do with a little practice. It has little to do with "qi" or "the mind" or "intent" and can be taught to nearly any novice in a few minutes. You can push yourself backwards if practicing by pushing against a wall.

After sufficient practice, one learns to time and position it just right against a push, without needing the "setup" to find the timing. It becomes second nature, just as in the OP video.



Also not the video I was looking for, but it shows what ability the above exercise can lead to - it is the same action:

robert wrote:There are a couple videos of CZH demonstrating on Sun Yang on the following page.

http://www.shiyongquanfa.cn/archives/77542
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby everything on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:06 pm

I went to a well known master of IMA and asked him to use press on me. I went flying up in the air and into the padded wall. I think most of us would be happy about that. It was great. However, it's qualitatively different from experiencing push when you basically feel nothing and you still uncontrollably go backward. I don't have any explanation except "qi" and "jin". For the first kind of skill, I've experienced and seen this kind of skill in sports many times. It's amazing but not magical. I can only imagine that if you could combine those two types, that would be the sort of thing in the YLC stories, where people are inexplicably "thrown out". No comment on the video.
Last edited by everything on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby robert on Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:57 pm

everything wrote:I went to a well known master of IMA and asked him to use press on me. I went flying up in the air and into the padded wall. I think most of us would be happy about that. It was great. However, it's qualitatively different from experiencing push when you basically feel nothing and you still uncontrollably go backward. I don't have any explanation except "qi" and "jin". For the first kind of skill, I've experienced and seen this kind of skill in sports many times. It's amazing but not magical. I can only imagine that if you could combine those two types, that would be the sort of thing in the YLC stories, where people are inexplicably "thrown out". No comment on the video.

I don't believe in qi, but since the body mechanics are different in CIMA it seems useful in describing movement so I don't completely throw it out. Taiji jin is something of a trick. If you think about magic tricks, they are really skills, and they are about deception. I think taiji jin is similar. Part of it is that the person applying it is relaxed so there is no clue that some thing is about to happen, and the power comes from the legs and waist, so it is unexpected, and no wind up is required. A lot of clues that we rely on, say, if someone is going to punch us or throw us are taken away. Jin is also a different kind of strength so I think it feels different. Like a magic trick the person doing it has to be pretty skilled to pull it off. Just an opinion.
Last edited by robert on Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Previous

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest