the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

In simple language, it is timing. No need to invoke metaphysics of the mind, qi ...

I like what he shows, in this and other videos, but don't much like his descriptions of what he states he is doing. It is too mystical, impractical, "coded" for me, when it doesn't have to be. As a technical writing teacher I once had used to say, "Eschew obfuscation". This is part of the reason that these arts are so difficult to learn.

You don't think training the mind/intention is necessary or useful?

This is very useful for all those times when an assailant grabs your wrists with limp arms and leans his chest against your fingertips to advance.

oragami_itto wrote:You don't think training the mind/intention is necessary or useful?

What he does has absolutely nothing to do with mind or intent. Following and fill in the gaps. Easy.

Agree with Charles. I really dislike all of his gibberish.

Bao wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:You don't think training the mind/intention is necessary or useful?

What he does has absolutely nothing to do with mind or intent. Following and fill in the gaps. Easy.

Agree with Charles. I really dislike all of his gibberish.

Agreed.

I was taught how to do that in about 5 minutes. No discussion of "mind", "qi" or other esoterica was necessary.

Training the mind and intention are necessary and useful, but this doesn't have much to do with that.

I'm sure you did. What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part. I'm sure your knowledge and method is superior.

oragami_itto wrote:I'm sure you did. What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part. I'm sure your knowledge and method is superior.

this is the only thing that is interesting about taiji (and makes it a million times more interesting than everything else). especially if one is a person that cannot muscle someone out.

(i did not watch the video whatsoever, so no idea on the flim flam vocab or lack thereof, and can't really be bothered).

oragami_itto wrote:... I guide the qi through the proper sequence.

If you would, can you describe the proper sequence you mention?

charles wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:... I guide the qi through the proper sequence.

If you would, can you describe the proper sequence you mention?

I'd be delighted, but I'm afraid I need your help. You're much more knowledgeable and articulate than me, so if you could describe your understanding of what's happening I could more easily tell you where the models may differ or overlap.

Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part.

Take just that small part around 1.36-1.40. What he does is just following the other person’s movement and speed exactly and “fill in the gap” while maintaining his own posture. He more or less just turn on the spot. No muscle effort needed. You won’t feel any effort or strength if done right. The real skill to be gained from this practice right here is not the use of Yi, but tingjin.

My first teacher, who taught all of these and similar methods to what Rasmus does, never spoke about Qi or Yi. Instead, what you did and how you maintained your posture and relaxation was important. In later years he experimented with intent, but I don't think he believed that it added any value. He was already far past that stage Hao Weizhen spoke about: ”If you are able to use intention to attack the opponent, then after long experience, even intention does not need to be applied, for the body standards will always be conformed to.“ IMO, this is what is important, "the body standard" and in this case here as well as tingjin. I know that some people believe that this Qi and Yi thinking helps them, maybe it can help them reach the same point, but it never did anything for me personally. It rather takes away my mind from feeling what I am doing. Listening to your body and to the changes that occur between you and your opponent is well worth all of your attention.

oragami_itto wrote:I'd be delighted, but I'm afraid I need your help. You're much more knowledgeable and articulate than me, so if you could describe your understanding of what's happening I could more easily tell you where the models may differ or overlap.

Based on what you wrote, "What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part", I thought you were describing your personal experience rather than an explanation of what is being shown in the video. I was just asking to have you describe that experience, specifically, what guiding the qi through the proper sequence is.

I wasn't able to find the video I was looking for. However, here are two of students practicing a basic exercise that explicitly teaches the skill in the OP video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdZNK_MCiKo

The two guys at about :45 understood the exercise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieqTgBMBQc

In short, in the exercise, your partner pushes you three times. You don't do anything but get pushed. You study the timing of the pushes. On the fourth, you catch the partner's push before it has fully "arrived". The result is that the partner pushes himself backwards as he "extends"/"finishes" the push. It's all in the timing and relative position and is not difficult to do with a little practice. It has little to do with "qi" or "the mind" or "intent" and can be taught to nearly any novice in a few minutes. You can push yourself backwards if practicing by pushing against a wall.

After sufficient practice, one learns to time and position it just right against a push, without needing the "setup" to find the timing. It becomes second nature, just as in the OP video.

Not a fan of those two vids. Not much following and guiding. And not much body method either. Sorry Charles.

charles wrote:[
After sufficient practice, one learns to time and position it just right against a push, without needing the "setup" to find the timing. It becomes second nature, just as in the OP video.

interesting drill, also use something similar only its in conjunction
of understanding the relationship between the intent to move "push" and the
movement itself. ie "timing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk9UQvaaBGQ

what is shown in the OPs clip and some others if one looks is a kind of leaning in
in a static stance which almost never translates well in a dynamic state. If one really watches
the OP clip the treacher has a tendency to lean in before he issues.

What then happens as seen in many of the fails often shown, the tcc person tries
to look for or find a static point from which to issue or neutralize.

I know that some people believe that this Qi and Yi thinking helps them, maybe it can help them reach the same point, but it never did anything for me personally. It rather takes away my mind from feeling what I am doing. Listening to your body and to the changes that occur between you and your opponent is well worth all of your attention.

Maybe it was not presented in a way that you could understand it. qi and yi are just words used to explain a point...many other ways of looking at it..."moment" "equilibrium " "returning force" ect.

One of them is understanding what the meaning of intent is, understanding it and how ones body / mind work using it.

Often people have an idea of what it should feel like based on a feeling they've read about or was told to look for ignoring what is actually felt. With people who are skilled one will feel something....what ever one labels it, not so important.

The real skill to be gained from this practice right here is not the use of Yi, but tingjin.

Mmm, what is "tingjin" sensing?