Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:49 am

Tingjin: listening skill. Yi might be useful for practice, but, IME, for real use it's too slow. Better to let your tingjin decide what to do. It knows and can decide by an instant. What Rasmus speak about might fool people that need to think and decide or have a strong idea of what they want. All of that is unnecessary. More important to learn how to get rid of everything that might delay action, to learn how to just "do".
Last edited by Bao on Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:07 am

Bao wrote:Tingjin: listening skill. Yi might be useful for practice, but, IME, for real use it's too slow. Better to let your tingjin decide what to do. It knows and can decide by an instant. ".


Seems confused.
One might start by understanding what one is "listening" to.

"tingjin" is a skill it, doesn't decide anything.
It could be said that having this skill aids one in knowing, just as seeing allows one to avoid obstacles.

Not to see is to be blind, unable to avoid obstacles.
For some practices this skill is not important. For practices that depend on it they won't work without it.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7311
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:14 am

Tingjin IS to see. Your tingjin knows what to do. If you use this knowledge, you never have to think, plan or wonder about what to do. You'll know what to to and will be able to act instantly right upon touch.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:03 am

Bao wrote:Tingjin IS to see. Your tingjin knows what to do. If you use this knowledge, you never have to think, plan or wonder about what to do. You'll know what to to and will be able to act instantly right upon touch.


ting-jin developed, allows one to act before touch, at touch in most cases its to late.
the skill can be used actively or passively, its developed passively, used actively.

is one of many jins, some might say one of the first skills developed in
understanding what is meant by "jin" one with out, one would not be
able to distinguish the difference between what is called Li and Jin.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7311
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:08 am

windwalker wrote:ting-jin developed, allows one to act before touch, at touch in most cases its to late.


Agreed. Acting, following and adjusting on distance is important. One should also have a clear idea on the opponent’s balance and movement before touch.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby marvin8 on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:21 am

windwalker wrote:
Bao wrote:Tingjin IS to see. Your tingjin knows what to do. If you use this knowledge, you never have to think, plan or wonder about what to do. You'll know what to to and will be able to act instantly right upon touch.


ting-jin developed, allows one to act before touch, at touch in most cases its to late.
the skill can be used actively or passively, its developed passively, used actively.

Yes, not only an internal thing. It's seen in sports where there is an opponent. Before "touch,"' a change in oneself can create a reaction in the opponent: putting one a step ahead of the opponent.

Waiting "upon touch" to understand the opponent, seems to be reacting to the opponent rather than leading. While one is waiting to touch and feel what's going on, the first contact from the opponent is a punch in the face.

Edit: Posted before reading Bao's subsequent post.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:44 am

Bao wrote:Not a fan of those two vids. Not much following and guiding. And not much body method either. Sorry Charles.


Nothing to be sorry about.

That's the point: it isn't about following, guiding, body method or other "internals". It is a relatively simple skill or technique that doesn't require a lot of "internal" to make it work. Timing and distance. One can put "internals" into it or not, but doing so isn't necessary to make it work, at least in this specific example. It's a specifically timed disruption of the opponent's action.
Last edited by charles on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:08 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'd be delighted, but I'm afraid I need your help. You're much more knowledgeable and articulate than me, so if you could describe your understanding of what's happening I could more easily tell you where the models may differ or overlap.


Based on what you wrote, "What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part", I thought you were describing your personal experience rather than an explanation of what is being shown in the video. I was just asking to have you describe that experience, specifically, what guiding the qi through the proper sequence is.
{/quote]
And now I will. I just had to get a clear idea of upon what you are basing your opinion and understanding. To coin a phrase, tell me what you saw and I'll tell you what you missed.

I wasn't able to find the video I was looking for. However, here are two of students practicing a basic exercise that explicitly teaches the skill in the OP video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdZNK_MCiKo

The two guys at about :45 understood the exercise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieqTgBMBQc

In short, in the exercise, your partner pushes you three times. You don't do anything but get pushed. You study the timing of the pushes. On the fourth, you catch the partner's push before it has fully "arrived". The result is that the partner pushes himself backwards as he "extends"/"finishes" the push. It's all in the timing and relative position and is not difficult to do with a little practice. It has little to do with "qi" or "the mind" or "intent" and can be taught to nearly any novice in a few minutes. You can push yourself backwards if practicing by pushing against a wall.

After sufficient practice, one learns to time and position it just right against a push, without needing the "setup" to find the timing. It becomes second nature, just as in the OP video.


So first I will say that parts of the exercise are similar, but they are vastly different.

The similiarities are the interrupting force, the moving last but arriving first aspect of knowing the intention and interrupting it as young power. This is an important skill.

The differences are the direction of the forces and how the energy is transformed, basically, what he's DOING with that timing is different.

There's a fella at around 1:30 in the second video that expresses a part of it, but his direction is still different. These videos show simple and direct opposing horizontal forces with a slight deflection. There is nothing that you could not honestly transmit to any person off the street in about five minutes, I absolutely agree. They are pushing straight back, or back and up, in a straight line. The timing to interrupt young power shunts the attacker's force back into his body in the intended direction and so they go that way. It is as much about qi as pushing a brick wall, I agree.

So how is it different. He demonstrates two variations on the same concept so let's address them separately to keep things simple.

Given: Mind/Yi leads Qi and Jin follows. If Yi is on Qi, it is stagnant and no Jin is possible. Therefore we need only discuss the mind aspect. If that is correct, the rest follows naturally, provided the mind-body connection has been cultivated to the point of effectiveness.

Speaking first person for simplicity.

In the first example, as the push comes in, I follow the incoming force to join with the opponent's mass. The force of the push transfers energy into my body, I use that energy to intensify a wave of compression enabled by relaxation from the center of my body to the extremities of my hands and feet. I also visualize compressing the opponent's structure where it has potential to be compressed, based on what I know through listening.

When I have reached maximum compression, a wave of expansion or release starts from my feet and travels through my core through the point of contact into the opponent's body which I simultaneously visualize releasing.

The compression and expansion describe a vertical circle. The compression cycle is like pressing down on a stack of milk caps, then moving your hand forward or backward an inch to allow the expansion cycle to happen on its own energy.

The second variation is actually much simpler. It's not as simple as shunting in a straight line, it's an alive redirection in multiple directions to cause the compression and expansion cycle in the same way in the opponent only, all through manipulation at and through the point of contact to redirect ANY movement, conscious or unconscious through stick/adhere/join/follow.

This is all a mental and physical process that requires a certain amount of developed mind-body connection that most people don't have just walking in off the street. It's slow in training but fast in application.
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1620
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:18 pm

charles wrote:That's the point: it isn't about following, guiding, body method or other "internals". It is a relatively simple skill or technique that doesn't require a lot of "internal" to make it work. Timing and distance. One can put "internals" into it or not, but doing so isn't necessary to make it work, at least in this specific example. It's a specifically timed disruption of the opponent's action.


That’s one way to look at it... I guess... if you compare your clip, they are stiff and have very little control of what they are doing. They do what they do with arm strength, not by transferring mass. And the timing is not very good.

Control and refinement, as well as making it more effective and efficient demands something else....
Control, sensitivity, balance, perfection of timing... This is exactly why we should “put in ‘internals’ into it”. It will not only make it work, but make it work much better.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:34 pm

Bao wrote: if you compare your clip, they are stiff and have very little control of what they are doing. They do what they do with arm strength, not by transferring mass. And the timing is not very good.


I realize that: they are students who were just shown an exercise and asked to go try it. My point in posting the videos - not the one I was looking for and couldn't find, which was the teacher showing the exercise and how to do it - was that it shows the exercise, at least for those who were actually doing the exercise - many were doing random stuff and standing around talking about the random stuff. (The frustration of many teachers who show a specific exercise to do, then have students pair-off and do anything but what they were explicitly shown, is another topic altogether.)

Control and refinement, as well as making it more effective and efficient demands something else....
Control, sensitivity, balance, perfection of timing... This is exactly why we should “put in ‘internals’ into it”. It will not only make it work, but make it work much better.


No disagreement there.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby charles on Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:52 pm

oragami_itto wrote:There's a fella at around 1:30 in the second video that expresses a part of it, but his direction is still different.


I don't know what they are doing, but it is not what the exercise is supposed to be doing.

So how is it different. He demonstrates two variations on the same concept so let's address them separately to keep things simple.


Sounds good, thanks. Presumably, the "concept" is store and release (compression/expansion). In the first variation, he stores and releases, in the second variation he explicitly states that the object is not to store/release oneself, but to cause that in the opponent.

In the first example, as the push comes in, I follow the incoming force to join with the opponent's mass. The force of the push transfers energy into my body, I use that energy to intensify a wave of compression enabled by relaxation from the center of my body to the extremities of my hands and feet. I also visualize compressing the opponent's structure where it has potential to be compressed, based on what I know through listening.

When I have reached maximum compression, a wave of expansion or release starts from my feet and travels through my core through the point of contact into the opponent's body which I simultaneously visualize releasing.

The compression and expansion describe a vertical circle. The compression cycle is like pressing down on a stack of milk caps, then moving your hand forward or backward an inch to allow the expansion cycle to happen on its own energy.


Mike Sigman, for example, used to teach this explicitly in the 1990's. Beginners at his seminars could do this within an hour or so. He has written much on the subject/has many videos on the store and release into the lower back. That is certainly one mechanism and an important one: the spine as one of the five bows. "Release as if firing an arrow from a bow."

As an aside, it is actually an arc, not a circle. If you get into the dan tian thing, the dan tian motion can be circular if there is a downward portion at the end of the push.

The second variation is actually much simpler. It's not as simple as shunting in a straight line, it's an alive redirection in multiple directions to cause the compression and expansion cycle in the same way in the opponent only, all through manipulation at and through the point of contact to redirect ANY movement, conscious or unconscious through stick/adhere/join/follow.


I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a straight line. The opponent stores and releases along a straight line, Mr. Rasmus interrupts the linear release causing the opponent to lose mechanical advantage and push himself straight backwards, linearly in the opposite direction to the opponent's push. At the very end of the video, he does something different, unbalancing the opponent to the side, a different action.

In my opinion, you are projecting onto what you see the standard verbiage from the "Classics". It might be one way of describing what is going on, but it is the long way around. In my opinion. Occam's Razor.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:57 pm

No he just has a size advantage and a cooperative student
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:29 pm

As usual you are absolutely correct
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1620
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:24 am

charles wrote:At the very end of the video, he does something different, unbalancing the opponent to the side, a different action.


Earlier at .55 he creates a reaction by a downward pushing movement. At 1.34 He just follows the gap, filling in the empty space by following the opponent's own movement. Here he does not initiate anything and does not provoke a reaction. If you are good at just filling the gaps, you never need to initiate any kind of reaction.

What you showed in your clips is more or less just the demonstration of two bodies of mass colliding with each other, though one mass is lower and moves under the other one. The less stable mass will obviously bounce away.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6831
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Tai Chi push energy Mark Rasmus

Postby LaoDan on Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:03 am

I think that the mind is very important, but mainly because it deceives us, and it has a strong tendency to “attach” (or overly focus on) one thing at a time. To do TJQ well, we must overcome these natural tendencies of the mind. Different traditions attempt to do this through different means, but I think that focusing on “feeling the qi” and “using intent” as well as focusing on specific points that are different than the application point (e.g., jindian vs. lidan), etc., are all methods to do this. They are tools, not goals, at least as I understand them. To me, the goal is to create a “soft focus” for the mind that is capable of simultaneously taking in numerous inputs (i.e., tingjin) rather than focusing on one at a time (as is our natural tendency).
LaoDan
Huajing
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest