Tai Chi Spiral Energy

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby littlepanda on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:41 am

littlepanda
Anjing
 
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby charles on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:34 am

Sort of.

In discussion, he states that, "It's completely relaxed" and isn't about physical twisting of body parts. If the body is "completely relaxed" it will fall to a heap on the floor. As soon as he gets to demonstrating it in a form, he repeatedly points out where he is "rotating" (twisting") in each movement. Twisting body parts takes effort, the antithesis of "completely relaxed". What is important is feeling the effort required to twist a body part followed by the relaxation, which naturally untwists it. Exertion, relaxation, exertion, relaxation, yin, yang, yin, yang. Extend/exert/twist, relax/untwist/withdraw. Open, close, open, close... If one doesn't know what exertion feels like, there is no reference to understand relaxation. Start big so one can obviously feel what is going on, progress to small, while retaining the feeling. Starting with small actions with uniform effort (or relaxation) makes it very difficult to progress and to feel what is/should be going on.

At least in Chen style, which he demonstrates at the end of the video, the training progression is to start with large, overt twisting actions so that one can feel the sensations. The physical body movements are an aid to guiding the "energy". Gradually, as one progresses, one doesn't need the overt twisting actions and one feels the "connection" and twisting in every movement, including those with no overt twisting. It is very subtle and not a good starting point for beginners. That is why, in my opinion, it is difficult to start with small, subtle actions, such as those often seen in popular expressions of Yang style and why I believe it is a "more advanced" expression. Not a very good starting point for beginners if they hope to "get it".

The teacher in the video is sending mixed messages that will leave students confused: he states one should be totally relaxed all the time and not use physical twisting motions, but when demonstrating, he points out that every movement should have a physical twisting action. (The astute student realizes that one cannot twist a body part while staying completely relaxed.)
Last edited by charles on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:48 am

charles wrote:
The teacher in the video is sending mixed messages that will leave students confused: he states one should be totally relaxed all the time and not use physical twisting motions, but when demonstrating, he points out that every movement should have a physical twisting action. (The astute student realizes that one cannot twist a body part while staying completely relaxed.)


Agree the teacher seems confused..

What he should be saying is that the twisting action is done with out tension, allowing one to feel the
closing as it develops from the action alone. There are other movements associated with the twisting action
sinking, rising ect.

what he seems to be talking about is the twisting commonly done in Chen styles very different in action and function
as done by most, then the twisting or spiralling used in yang styles or their derivatives. My own teacher emphasised twisting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

If the body is "completely relaxed" it will fall to a heap on the floor.


In his 90s at the time of the clip...its a demo, teaching a concept
filmed by me on a cell phone....oten the people travel quite far backwards not shown in the clip.
people laugh or smile as most including myself have been on the receiving end.

If the body is "completely relaxed" it will fall to a heap on the floor.


It would seem you do not understand the concept of fan song or focus on something that
most would understand what the meaning is but you'er trying to make some point?

might want to look into the meaning of what central equilibrium is.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7410
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby charles on Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:57 pm

windwalker wrote:
If the body is "completely relaxed" it will fall to a heap on the floor.


It would seem you do not understand the concept of fan song or focus on something that
most would understand what the meaning is but you'er trying to make some point?

might want to look into the meaning of what central equilibrium is.


I quoted, verbatim, the guy in the video. The average beginner has no idea what fan song is or of the type of "relaxation" that is required of Taijiquan.

My point was that those attending his seminar, and many of those watching the video, will go away with the impression that Taijiquan is all about being relaxed, such as feet up with a gin and tonic, within the average person's experience of what the word "relaxed" means. In my opinion, It's perpetuating a common myth or misunderstanding.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:02 pm

charles wrote:
I quoted, verbatim, the guy in the video. The average beginner has no idea what fan song is or of the type of "relaxation" that is required of Taijiquan.

Not just the average beginner many who've practiced for a long time still haven't gotten it
yet


My point was that those attending his seminar, and many of those watching the video, will go away with the impression that Taijiquan is all about being relaxed, such as feet up with a gin and tonic, within the average person's experience of what the word "relaxed" means. In my opinion, It's perpetuating a common myth or misunderstanding.


Those attending the seminar seem to understand and get it, as well as be able to question what they dont.
The common myth is the one you stated about collapsing on the floor...thats a myth perpetuated by not understanding
what is meant and what is said....

Anyway, do agree that he seems to be confused in his presentation, but understand the point
he's trying to make...The chen and yang ideas of spiral energy are different...
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7410
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:23 pm

Here's WHJ for comparison doing silk reeling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIpue1b ... e=youtu.be



You can see the way his whole body (arms, legs and torso) is winding as he does the exercise.

The conclusion I have come to, currently, is that these diagrams from Chen Xin's book:

Image

and

Image

are showing how and where the body winds, for example, as shown in the video above, when engaged in a silk reeling exercise (and in the Tai Chi form of course, which is a long protracted and very varied silk reeling exercise).

Note that there are no direction arrows on the windings since you can wind in both directions- open and close.

What the diagrams don't show, which I think is important, and WHJ is showing, is the fact that the power comes from the legs and middle, directed by the dantien. So, the arms are only winding because they are directed to do so by the legs and middle.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11823
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:30 pm

Translations from Chen Xin's book:

http://www.taiji-bg.com/articles/taijiquan/t29.htm

"Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.
Once Qi of the hand moves to the back of the foot, then big toe simultaneously closes with the hand and only at this moment (one can) step firmly.

This power (Jin) comes from Heart (Xin), on the inside it enters bones, on the outside it reaches skin, it is one (power), not multiple (powers). Power is Qi that comes from Heart. If it is moved in central and right way, then it is Central Qi (Zhong Qi); when it is nourished, then it is Noble Spirit (Haoran zhi Qi)."

"THEORY OF SILK REELING ESSENCE OF TAIJIQUAN

Taijiquan is the method of silk reeling (coiling).

(There is) coiling forward, coiling backward, coiling leftward and rightward, coiling upward and downward, coiling inward and outward, small and big coiling, conforming (Shun) and contrary (Ni) coiling. Their importance lies in (ability to) coil once (the opponent) is lured (Yin) or once (one) steps forward ("enters" the opponent), and not in using specific applications of specific postures. If specific applications of specific movements are used, then Yin and Yang are not at their (movements and applications) roots. Common people (those who do not know Taijiquan) will see (the practitioner) as a weak (soft) one. This is the impression given on the outside. If talking in terms of the state of mind (Shenyun), when hands are crossed hardness and softness are equally used according to one's wishes. Those who are not long on this path (of Taijiquan practice) are not able to thouroughly understand these details. Both shoulders (should) drop down, both elbows (should) sink; delicate like a virgin seeing a man, unbridled like a fierce tiger descending a mountain.

Hands are like a balance, weigh something and you know its weight. The path of martial arts practice is to have such a balance in your heart (mind). This invisible balance is to approach (examine) the opponent according to his movements forward and backward and his speed, using the spirit (mind) mastered in everyday practice. To weigh visible signs using invisible balance, and adjust according to what both hands feel, add less or more weight (when necessary), this (who is able to do it) is called Excellent Hand (Miao Shou, master)."
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11823
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Bhassler on Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:56 pm

Mr. Meredith's Chen style is idiosyncratic, to say the least.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Trick on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:06 pm

GrahamB wrote:
Image
.

could be vine growing when stand too stil or move too slow too long time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahubali
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:18 am

Trick wrote:could be vine growing when stand too stil or move too slow too long time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahubali


That's really interesting. It could be that this "vine" story is a clue to this body strengthening knowledge of body windings and open/close being a part of many ancient cultures. Bahubali's name means "strong arms".

Who knows, but it's a pretty good explanation for the story...

Image

Plus - dick pics!
(and he enjoys a Sprite).
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11823
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 am

yeah, just yeasterday i for the first time hear about Janism and looked it up, and saw this guy and the story about him(didnt notice the willy until now)(smiley with shades) and came to think about such drawings you posted
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby robert on Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:16 am

GrahamB wrote:Translations from Chen Xin's book:

http://www.taiji-bg.com/articles/taijiquan/t29.htm

"Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body."

Thanks for posting that. Just thought I'd point out that the term used is jin. In the English translation of the book I have the translator uses energy. I like strength or skill. And jin is certainly a physical strength or skill. The guy in the video in the OP is really out there ...
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 256
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:57 pm

I have never been able to take Meredith seriously
Secondly I think Chens diagrams are one of the reasons most Chen stylists are lost down the wrong path
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3537
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby everything on Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:25 pm

didn't watch vid (sorry). have tried his tips, and found they worked pretty well.

on the spiral stuff, normally I don't geek out on biomechanics, and definitely don't think that's what "internal" means (because then wtf do ballerinas and olympic gymnasts do - external?), but simple stuff like Pavel saying to do push ups by imagining a spiral up and down, pull yourself down using spiral - almost immediately you're like hmm yeah that simple mind body trick works.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4876
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:20 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Secondly I think Chens diagrams are one of the reasons most Chen stylists are lost down the wrong path


Not the diagrams fault. It’s the contemporary Chen guys who has no clue about how to use them. Chen Xin who made them studied the small frame. About everyone today who practice silk reeling nowadays are large frame guys. What Chen Xin did was meant for small frame practice, not for large frame. And secondly, CXW himself has said that the “silk reeling” taught today was just a bunch of exercises designed to simplify tai chi practice, making it easier to study. So what they call silk reeling today is a simplified large frame body method that bears little resemblance to the small frame movements Chen Xin meant. That they use Chen Xin’s term and drawings leads to confusion.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6983
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Next

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest