Tai Chi Spiral Energy

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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:49 am

charles wrote:
Bao wrote: What I mean is that what Chen Xin describes doesn't really fit exactly into the modern format. So interpreting Chen Xin from a modern practicing perspective will lead to confusion.


Where, specifically, do you believe modern Chen practice deviates from what Chen Xin wrote?



One thing specifically? I didn't write "modern Chen practice." I said from a modern perspective. The common standard of Chen style is new. So I mean mostly large frame, the new style. Though many small frame practitioners seem to have adapted the modern, large frame "look" as well.

"Once Qi of the hand moves to the back of the foot, then big toe simultaneously closes with the hand and only at this moment (one can) step firmly."

"Whether foot is Empty (Xu) or Solid (Shi) depends on hand, if hand is Empty then foot is also Empty, if hand is Solid then foot is solid too."
(http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenxin.html)

This implies direct connection between foot and hand, and it's also logical considering the follow step used in small frame. Most Chen stylists today, speaking about large frame, use a more indirect connection and sequential coordination between the body parts. From what I have watched from Small frame as well, the shenfa can be very compact and look much more simplistic.

There are other things as well, as things you can see in old Wu (Yuxiang, which comes directly from small frame) a much more complicated shenfa with active use and coordination of lower ribs, spine and scapula. Makes me wonder what was inherited in Wu/Hao and simplified or lost in Chen style....
Last edited by Bao on Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:08 pm

From the discussion, I think that the statement "Taijiquan is" can only have meaning to the person who asserts it --in this case, Chen Xin. There have been several terms used almost interchangeably: silk-reeling, figure-eight, spirals, and coiling. Couldn't one say that Taijiquan "is" any one those, ...with a little peng and sung thrown in.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby robert on Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Steve James wrote:From the discussion, I think that the statement "Taijiquan is" can only have meaning to the person who asserts it --in this case, Chen Xin.

I don't think that's the case. If someone said taijiquan is peng jin, I and I think many other people would know what they mean. That would mean you need to have peng jin to call what you're doing taijiquan.

Steve James wrote:There have been several terms used almost interchangeably: silk-reeling, figure-eight, spirals, and coiling. Couldn't one say that Taijiquan "is" any one those, ...with a little peng and sung thrown in.

I don't think so, figure-eight is a shape, if you don't have peng jin you don't have silk reeling. The external form isn't important, it is the use of jin that is important. Yang style doesn't say much about silk reeling, but it does make YCF's top ten list. From The Art of Taiji Boxing, by Chen Weiming.

九相連不斷
9. THE MOVEMENTS ARE LINKED TOGETHER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION

外家拳術。其勁乃後天之拙勁。故有起有止。有續有斷。舊力已盡。新力未生。此時最易為人所乘。太極用意不用力。自始至終。綿綿不斷。周而復始。循環無窮。原論所謂如長江大河。滔滔不絕。又曰運勁如抽絲。皆言其貫串一氣也。
In external styles of boxing arts, their strength is only the clumsy strength of acquired habit. Therefore there is a start and a stop, a continuing and an interrupting. It is when old force is spent and new force is not yet initiated that is the easiest moment for an opponent to take advantage of. Taiji uses intention, not exertion, and so from beginning to end, it is continuous without interruption, recycling endlessly. A primary text [Essays, part 1] says: “It is like a long river flowing into the wide ocean, on and on ceaselessly.” It is also said [in Understanding How to Practice]: “Move energy as if drawing silk.”* These words describe a continuous flow throughout.


The idea expressed is that you maintain peng jin while you move. This basic idea was discussed in another thread about Fu Zhongwen and jindian - jin points. The idea is that you maintain a jin path as you move. In Fu's book it moves around the wrist. Why? because the arm is winding/coiling.

*
又曰運勁如抽絲。 - It is also said move jin (勁 - strength / energy / enthusiasm / spirit / mood / expression / interest) as if spinning silk (chou si).
Last edited by robert on Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:14 pm

Yang style doesn't say much about silk reeling, but it does make YCF's top ten list. From The Art of Taiji Boxing, by Chen Weiming.
It is also said [in Understanding How to Practice]: “Move energy as if drawing silk.” These words describe a continuous flow throughout.



What Yang stylists speak about is Zhousi, drawing or pulling silk. In chen style it’s called Chansijin, reeling silk. These are different things however related.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby robert on Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:35 pm

Bao wrote:What Yang stylists speak about is Zhousi, drawing or pulling silk. In chen style it’s called Chansijin, reeling silk. These are different things however related.

mdbg translates 抽絲 as spinning silk, but either way both describe the process of making silk thread. Silk is drawn out of silk cocoons onto a reel. If a person can manipulate jin it is clear what is being said.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:44 pm

If someone said taijiquan is peng jin, I and I think many other people would know what they mean. That would mean you need to have peng jin to call what you're doing taijiquan.


And, anyone can say that they know what peng jin means, but that's not what Chen Xin wrote. If I say taijiquan is peng-jin, many others would know what I mean. But, then we'd be wrong according to Chen Xin (unless we understand that he understood that without peng jin one couldn't have silk-reeling (or chansi jin), though he said "coiling".

I agree with you that many people agree on what peng jin is and what chansi jin is. I'm not at all sure that what you understand is what Chen Xin meant. They are your interpretations.

In general, I'm skeptical of definitive (as Charles would say "black or white") interpretations of tcc or of individual styles. There's too much variation
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:05 pm

robert wrote:
Bao wrote:What Yang stylists speak about is Zhousi, drawing or pulling silk. In chen style it’s called Chansijin, reeling silk. These are different things however related.

mdbg translates 抽絲 as spinning silk, but either way both describe the process of making silk thread. Silk is drawn out of silk cocoons onto a reel. If a person can manipulate jin it is clear what is being said.


Zhousi in Yang style is to move perfectly smooth and evenly while keeping exactly the same pace. Chansi as understood by the modern leading Chen guys is to connect and coordinate your movements from the Dantian with coordinated spiraling movements. The two terms have different meanings and are different practices that leads to different qualities of jin. Some people say that they should always have characteristics of each other. And others claim that they are not compatible.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby robert on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:13 pm

Steve James wrote:I agree with you that many people agree on what peng jin is and what chansi jin is. I'm not at all sure that what you understand is what Chen Xin meant. They are your interpretations.

In general, I'm skeptical of definitive (as Charles would say "black or white") interpretations of tcc or of individual styles. There's too much variation

That's fine, there's no reason you should accept my interpretation and my interpretation is drawn from having studied the book, not just the quote provided in the thread.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby robert on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:25 pm

Bao wrote:Zhousi in Yang style is to move perfectly smooth and evenly while keeping exactly the same pace. Chansi as understood by the modern leading Chen guys is to connect and coordinate your movements from the Dantian with coordinated spiraling movements. The two terms have different meanings and are different practices that leads to different qualities of jin. Some people say that they should always have characteristics of each other. And others claim that they are not compatible.

Different qualities of jin? How is peng jin in Chen style different from peng jin in Yang style?

What Chen Weiming wrote is - 又曰運勁如抽絲。 - It is also said move jin as if spinning silk. The idea is that you don't want any breaks or gaps in your jin. As Brennan points out that quote is from Understanding How to Practice, and predates YCF - it applies to Yang Banhou and Shaohou and other Yang members who had fajin in thir forms, including YCF in his early years. I think you have a modern interpretation of Yang taiji ;)
Last edited by robert on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:30 pm

that qoute from Chen Weiming's book is interesting. it show he has absolutely no clue about so called "extetnal" martial arts. And he never have had any fight against a fighter. his taijiquan as an martial art is pure theory....I think he was YCF's first deciple ?
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Re: Tai Chi Spiral Energy

Postby Bao on Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:06 am

Different qualities of jin? How is peng jin in Chen style different from peng jin in Yang style?


I never mentioned pengjin.
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