String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby middleway on Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:22 am

Well, Maul does move at an angle every time the opponent moves. Anderson moves different from Wanderlei here:


Absolutely. I was working with one of the guys who is doing an MMA fight next month, Using toe in footwork and circling, i was able to push him into my low round kick constantly. Once i showed him how to recognize when someone is trying to do that it changed his approach.

This big different here IMO is that Maul (who i think is very skilled by the way) is 'turning' to adjust angle and not using footwork in the way that Silva is. This is very open to someone running you down.

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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby marvin8 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:34 am

middleway wrote:
Well, Maul does move at an angle every time the opponent moves. Anderson moves different from Wanderlei here:


Absolutely. I was working with one of the guys who is doing an MMA fight next month, Using toe in footwork and circling, i was able to push him into my low round kick constantly. Once i showed him how to recognize when someone is trying to do that it changed his approach.

This big different here IMO is that Maul (who i think is very skilled by the way) is 'turning' to adjust angle and not using footwork in the way that Silva is. This is very open to someone running you down.

Thanks.

I agree. I wasn't implying Maul's method was the most effective. Anderson is moving away from Belfort's power hand and feinting, not allowing Belfort to set forward pressure.

Yes. They say not to chase an opponent. But, cut him off.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby zrm on Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:46 pm

Tiga Pukul wrote:Hmmm well that is a VERY general statement on Silat. That's a bit like saying KungFu is always fighting on long distance and low stances. The 'Silat' unarmed is a direct extension of knife techniques is one of the bigger misconceptions on a lot of the Silat styles.


That's fair. I am no Silat expert and didn't intend to make such a sweeping generalization. It was more about me trying to interpret the motivations behind the concepts that Maul was demonstrating than anything else. I thought that what he was showing made more sense from that point of view.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:05 pm

IMO, empty-hand fighting in Filipino arts like Kali and Escrima are more directly related to respective stick and knife techniques. However, since practitioners of Kali/Escrima and Silat in the West (especially in the U.S.) often cross-train, the concept has also crossed over from Filipino arts to Silat.

The interesting thing about Silat (and Kuntao) is that many of the moves are almost identical to the Southern Shaolin kungfu I've learned and seen in Taiwan that was brought over by immigrants from the southern provinces of China centuries ago. Ironically though, the fighting techniques that are openly taught in Silat are actually materials that only "indoor" students can have access in the styles and schools I was exposed to there.

I remember one time I met an elderly teacher who had a reputation for being a no-nonsense street fighter in his youth at a MA event few years ago in Taiwan. After knocking back a few bottles of hard liquor and making me promise to never reveal what he was about to show me to outsiders, he proceeded to demonstrate some of his "secret" fighting applications on me in private. To my disappointment, they turned out to be nothing more than Silat 101 -- just basic entries followed by foot traps and sweeps.

So I took out my phone, got on Youtube, and showed him a few Silat clips containing similar techniques. The look on his face......PRICELESS! ;D
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby Trick on Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:33 pm

C.J.W. wrote:IMO, empty-hand fighting in Filipino arts like Kali and Escrima are more directly related to respective stick and knife techniques. However, since practitioners of Kali/Escrima and Silat in the West (especially in the U.S.) often cross-train, the concept has also crossed over from Filipino arts to Silat.

The interesting thing about Silat (and Kuntao) is that many of the moves are almost identical to the Southern Shaolin kungfu I've learned and seen in Taiwan that was brought over by immigrants from the southern provinces of China centuries ago. Ironically though, the fighting techniques that are openly taught in Silat are actually materials that only "indoor" students can have access in the styles and schools I was exposed to there.

I remember one time I met an elderly teacher who had a reputation for being a no-nonsense street fighter in his youth at a MA event few years ago in Taiwan. After knocking back a few bottles of hard liquor and making me promise to never reveal what he was about to show me to outsiders, he proceeded to demonstrate some of his "secret" fighting applications on me in private. To my disappointment, they turned out to be nothing more than Silat 101 -- just basic entries followed by foot traps and sweeps.

So I took out my phone, got on Youtube, and showed him a few Silat clips containing similar techniques. The look on his face......PRICELESS! ;D

did the filipinos break the code of secrecy or was that "invented" in taiwan ? what was that elderly guy's look, surpise, happiness or maybe a bit of sadness ?.....the okinawan text bubishi and its chinese original text was supposed to be a text only for the most initiated, but turned out to be out in the open on mainland china
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby Trick on Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 am

yes, things/methods i myself had been experimenting with in my karate practice by just the use of logic because by my logic it should be and is there in the martial art of karate, i was introduced to immediately when i took up the practice of CMA's....which then in turn has lead me to see more clear the more intricate but often neglected points in the very basic of karate practice. which i dont practice anymore but yet still practice in my CMA's practice 8-)
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby Trick on Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:15 am

WW's post gone with the wind ?
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby Tiga Pukul on Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:46 am

C.J.W. wrote:IMO, empty-hand fighting in Filipino arts like Kali and Escrima are more directly related to respective stick and knife techniques. However, since practitioners of Kali/Escrima and Silat in the West (especially in the U.S.) often cross-train, the concept has also crossed over from Filipino arts to Silat.

The interesting thing about Silat (and Kuntao) is that many of the moves are almost identical to the Southern Shaolin kungfu I've learned and seen in Taiwan that was brought over by immigrants from the southern provinces of China centuries ago. Ironically though, the fighting techniques that are openly taught in Silat are actually materials that only "indoor" students can have access in the styles and schools I was exposed to there.

I remember one time I met an elderly teacher who had a reputation for being a no-nonsense street fighter in his youth at a MA event few years ago in Taiwan. After knocking back a few bottles of hard liquor and making me promise to never reveal what he was about to show me to outsiders, he proceeded to demonstrate some of his "secret" fighting applications on me in private. To my disappointment, they turned out to be nothing more than Silat 101 -- just basic entries followed by foot traps and sweeps.

So I took out my phone, got on Youtube, and showed him a few Silat clips containing similar techniques. The look on his face......PRICELESS! ;D


I know what you try to say but still saying Silat (and Kuntao) (thousands of styles) is very similar to Southern Shaolin Kungfu (one or a few styles) is still a stretch. Sometimes when i look at other silat styles and i compare them with what i train i feel it's like a different world (different strategy, tactics, way of generating power, way of moving, use of words). In the end you still need to be lucky to find a solid and deep system with a teacher who has a lot of knowledge, skill and a solid lineage tree and, most importantly, is willing to share. But then again everyone thinks he found a teacher like that ;)
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:02 am

Trick wrote:did the filipinos break the code of secrecy or was that "invented" in taiwan ? what was that elderly guy's look, surpise, happiness or maybe a bit of sadness ?.....the okinawan text bubishi and its chinese original text was supposed to be a text only for the most initiated, but turned out to be out in the open on mainland china


My impression is that the Filipino and Indonesian masters are usually more open-minded about sharing compared to their Chinese counterparts. The transmission of genuine CMA has also been shrouded in secrecy and burdened by the complex elements of Chinese culture (e.g., Daoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, discipleship, riddle-like boxing manuals and classics etc), whereas in Filipino and Indonesian arts they just get right down to the nitty gritty from the get-go.

The old master was flabbergasted. He couldn't believe that the advanced techniques that have been passed down through the generations in his lineage are actually openly taught in some foreign martial art style from Indonesia called "Silat" that he'd never heard of. He also said that if he were those Silat guys, he'd never ever make those materials public.

I used to do Fujian White Crane so I'm somewhat familiar with Bubishi (or Wu Bei zhi in Chinese). The version that you are referring to, the Okinawan Bubishi, is basically identical to the old boxing manual of Fujian White Crane. There is another military manual also called Bubishi from Ming Dynasty that is over 10000 pages long.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:26 am

Tiga Pukul wrote:I know what you try to say but still saying Silat (and Kuntao) (thousands of styles) is very similar to Southern Shaolin Kungfu (one or a few styles) is still a stretch. Sometimes when i look at other silat styles and i compare them with what i train i feel it's like a different world (different strategy, tactics, way of generating power, way of moving, use of words). In the end you still need to be lucky to find a solid and deep system with a teacher who has a lot of knowledge, skill and a solid lineage tree and, most importantly, is willing to share. But then again everyone thinks he found a teacher like that ;)


True. I suppose I should have phrased it better and said that "some of the Silat styles I've seen contain techniques that are almost identical to the Southern Shaolin kungfu I've either come across or practiced." ;)

I read somewhere years ago that the founder of Cimande used to cross hands and compare notes with Chinese Kungfu masters who'd immigrated to Indonesia in the late 1700s. Wonder if you can provide any more info related to that?

Also, on an interesting side note, "Kuntao" actually means "fist" in southern Fukien dialect, and is the old-fashioned way of referring to martial arts/kung fu in general. Due to the large number of people of Fukienese descent in Taiwan, the term was also widely used back in the days -- especially prior to 1949 before Chiang Kaishek's Nationalist army came and caused a large influx of CMA styles from other regions of China. While nowadays the younger generations and practitioners of Northern styles and IMAs usually use words like "Kuoshu," "Wushu," and "Gongfu" to refer to CMA, elderly Taiwanese people above the age of 70 still often call it "Kuntao."

So Kuntao is basically an umbrella term that encompasses all of the various Southern CMA styles that originated in the southern and coastal regions of Fukien, where seafaring locals have traveled and immigrated to what are now Taiwan, the Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia, since the 15th century, and brought their fighting arts to those foreign lands.

Am I saying that ALL Kuntao and Silat styles originally came from China? Of course not. But I don't think it'd be unfair to say that Chinese Kuntao had influenced the development of many systems practiced in the Malay Archipelago, especially ones that still bear the same name.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:11 am

拳头 Quantou (Fist)

Iirc Uncle Bill DeThours also said that it was a term used to label a martial art as being of Chinese origin and that calling something Kuntao wasn’t always a good thing as it was foreign and therefore inferior. Edit - and for reasons pointed out by cjw, they likely were inferior.

.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby Tiga Pukul on Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:48 am

About the link to Cimande. There are plenty of stories of Indonesian Silat practitioners crossing hands with Chinese Kungfu practitioners, not just in Cimande. There was a lot of trading between the countries in the South East Asia region so that sounds plausible. The problem is it's basically stories, and the stories always tend to write in favour of their own countries' practitioner. Usually the Silat guy wins in Indonesia, and the Chinese guy (usually practicing Kuntao) wins according to the Chinese.
The two main countries of influence mentioned are usually India and China.

If you look at Indonesia, it's nowadays mainly Muslim country but it used to be more syncretic in nature, mixing Animist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and Christian influences. So it was quite common to mix 'n match, not only in religion, but also in martial arts.

As for Willem de Thouars, i'm not sure what to believe of him. He has told soo many conflicting stories, also changing history and stories within one month. He did train, you can see that, has skills, but I would not trust his words on history too much.

Indonesian martial arts undoubtedly has part of it's origins in China, but as with the Okinawan styles, they still are stylized in a specific way. Indonesian Martial Arts to me have a specific way of 'flowing' in application, but perhaps that's my level of understanding now after 30 years, in the end we only have 2 arms and 2 legs to work with.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:20 am

I also agree that Indonesian Silat has its unique flow and flavor that make it quite distinctively different from Chinese arts. While the Okinawans have pretty much retained what they learned from the Chinese (e.g., Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu) without much change, the Indonesians have taken it, IMO, above and beyond and made it better.

I actually feel that technique-wise Silat is superior to Southern CMA styles (e.g., joint-locks, takedowns, pins, and ground controlling moves), not to mention blade work and unique soft weapons like sarong.
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Re: String Theory & OFF BALANCE Your Oponent — Maul Mornie

Postby Tiga Pukul on Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:56 am

Yep Silat has those aspects. Personally i prefer more hitting and kicking, with every bodypart (fist, arm, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee, shin, foot etc.) possible. Sweeps and locks for us are never the end goal, just a means to an end. Dealing with hits and kicks is less pleasant to train sometimes but good for the spirit.
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