Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby Bao on Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:18 am

oragami_itto wrote:After marvin explained his process I figured out how to make gifs from videos with VLC, ffmpeg, and the Gimp.
So that's an excuse to post me using this underhook/drag/pluck idea a couple ways in light push hands.

Image

Image


Looks good. 8-)
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby Giles on Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:19 am

Looks good.

I agree. And thanks for posting. Positive that you're separating the use of your hands: not using both at the same time to give an impulse in the same direction, but instead alternating left-right-left etc.
Watch out with your rear leg: you're getting some torsion in your left knee, probably because your hip joints need to open more. This opening is usually a gradual process - can't force it, keep training it gently but persistently. Otherwise the knees may start to cause problems over the course of time.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:48 am

Bao wrote:Looks good. 8-)


Thanks! :D

@giles I noticed that leg swimming a little too, things like that are why I'm filming now. Thanks!
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby everything on Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:47 pm

really like the video from Bao. Totally agree about arm drag vs. pluck.

for the GIF, I don't see any animation - might be my browser. I mean, you guys look good, but I just can't see the motion.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby charles on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:12 pm

oragami_itto wrote:After marvin explained his process I figured out how to make gifs from videos with VLC, ffmpeg, and the Gimp.
So that's an excuse to post me using this underhook/drag/pluck idea a couple ways in light push hands.

Image

Image


Feng Zhiqiang included in his push hands curriculum an exercise nearly identical to what you've shown. Feng called it "lu" (roll back), not "cai" (pluck). In Feng's exercise, the person being pulled is performing a shoulder kao, or at least the intent of one.

As an aside, what you've shown reminds me of why I don't think fixed step push hands/two-person work has much value beyond a beginner level. As you pull your partner, he, in order to avoid stepping, is compromised. If he stepped in towards you, between your legs, he could easily neutralize your pull and simultaneously attack, leveraging your pull and displacing you. In your demonstration, after you've pulled him in, you push him out and in so doing are off balance, rather than step into him, between his legs, which would greatly increase the effectiveness of your push. The don't-move-your-feet reinforces/teaches ineffective and compromising habits.

Something you might like to try with your partner is, rather than simply pulling the back of his elbow horizontally, reach under his elbow, with your fingers on the outside of his elbow, and twist his arm/elbow while pulling towards the centre and upwards somewhat. The twisting of his entire arm, from the elbow, compromises his structure and eliminates the need for you to turn so far to the side, which would help maintain your hip/knee/ankle alignment. It's an application of single whip, the hook hand.

Something else you might like to try if you are going to pull with your right hand on the back of your partner's right shoulder is to maintain contact with his right hand/forearm with your left hand. As your right hand pulls towards your rear/right side, your left hand pushes forward and to your left. Doing so applies a lock to his right elbow, the only release for him is to go with your pull on his shoulder, effectively throwing himself to relieve the overextension of his elbow. It's an example of "splitting" (cai).

One more, just for fun. In the second GIF, as you pull your partner, if he stepped with his forward foot to hook his foot behind your forward foot, he could leverage your pull to strike the inside of your knee with his knee, a knee kao. You won't like that much. (It's an application of a Chen "push legs" exercise.)
Last edited by charles on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:36 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:48 pm

^^^+10^^^,
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby everything on Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:28 pm

completely agree, but...

if you do this taiji stuff and THEN you go to judo, and people are shit at fixed step work. you have way more margin of error when they think they got you. but they don't. shrug emoji. you should be good "against the ropes" and in "the center of the octagon".
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:41 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:After marvin explained his process I figured out how to make gifs from videos with VLC, ffmpeg, and the Gimp.
So that's an excuse to post me using this underhook/drag/pluck idea a couple ways in light push hands.

Image

Image


Feng Zhiqiang included in his push hands curriculum an exercise nearly identical to what you've shown. Feng called it "lu" (roll back), not "cai" (pluck). In Feng's exercise, the person being pulled is performing a shoulder kao, or at least the intent of one.


Kao or Zhou can be an effective counter to this kind of pull in my experience. Or with slightly different timing this can be an effective counter to them. Traditions differ and sometimes in my opinion conflate lu with pulling. Sounds like a neat exercise.

As an aside, what you've shown reminds me of why I don't think fixed step push hands/two-person work has much value beyond a beginner level. As you pull your partner, he, in order to avoid stepping, is compromised. If he stepped in towards you, between your legs, he could easily neutralize your pull and simultaneously attack, leveraging your pull and displacing you. In your demonstration, after you've pulled him in, you push him out and in so doing are off balance, rather than step into him, between his legs, which would greatly increase the effectiveness of your push. The don't-move-your-feet reinforces/teaches ineffective and compromising habits.

It's a matter of knowing what you're doing and why you're doing it when you're doing it, in my opinion. You know what you're doing and so you do what you do to get what you want. Same here. Though I'm solving the problem incorrectly, mostly. I'm working towards a particular end. I am a beginner level.

Something you might like to try with your partner is, rather than simply pulling the back of his elbow horizontally, reach under his elbow, with your fingers on the outside of his elbow, and twist his arm/elbow while pulling towards the centre and upwards somewhat. The twisting of his entire arm, from the elbow, compromises his structure and eliminates the need for you to turn so far to the side, which would help maintain your hip/knee/ankle alignment. It's an application of single whip, the hook hand.

I'll try to keep that in mind.
Something else you might like to try if you are going to pull with your right hand on the back of your partner's right shoulder is to maintain contact with his right hand/forearm with your left hand. As your right hand pulls towards your rear/right side, your left hand pushes forward and to your left. Doing so applies a lock to his right elbow, the only release for him is to go with your pull on his shoulder, effectively throwing himself to relieve the overextension of his elbow. It's an example of "splitting" (cai).

Sounds pretty awkward, perhaps you could demonstrate the technique with one of your students so I could get a better idea? I generally look for that sort of qinna with the left hand on right shoulder and right hand on right wrist. The way you describe it seems like they would have free reign to pummel your right side with the other hand.
What I'm generally looking for with it is to go a little more perpendicular to my forward line, and I should be able to change their vector without bending forward as I tend to do.

One more, just for fun. In the second GIF, as you pull your partner, if he stepped with his forward foot to hook his foot behind your forward foot, he could leverage your pull to strike the inside of your knee with his knee, a knee kao. You won't like that much. (It's an application of a Chen "push legs" exercise.)
Sometimes people try that, even though it's not really the game I'm usually intending to play. I usually lift that knee into their breadbox as they come forward. Usually the contact is incidental, though, because as stated that's not the game we're agreeing to play. When people bring different intentions the game starts looking different. I hope we get to play sometime.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:32 am

Good to see that someone else agrees with that these moves are not exactly "cai". Though most of the martial arts oriented Tai Chi community would call it so... :P

Charles wrote: ...reach under his elbow, with your fingers on the outside of his elbow, and twist his arm/elbow while pulling towards the centre and upwards somewhat. The twisting of his entire arm, from the elbow, compromises his structure and eliminates the need for you to turn so far to the side, which would help maintain your hip/knee/ankle alignment.


That is a better version than "1", agreed. The version here is too much divided into two steps (or actually three), so a somewhat experienced player wouldn't fall for it. But "2" is ok if you pull aligned straight through the centreline. It should be done fast and direct like a jerk, not first pulling to the side, but directly upon grabbing. Think it's ok done here. But it's not a good strategy for stationary PH. Better to do while stepping, when closing in and to the side. If the op counters on the initial grab by straightening the body and moves away, it's easy to follow and close in even more, trapping him while he tries to escape.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:42 pm

Find someone who knows how to do Huangs swinging arms correctly and you will see how much is missing
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:54 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Find someone who knows how to do Huangs swinging arms correctly and you will see how much is missing


I'm not doing swing arms in the clips I posted, just free pushing.

Is this correct?

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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:55 pm

No I can see at least two parts that are missing
And the rest lacks structure
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:34 am

Nice clip Oriagami. Thanks for sharing.

I liked Charles' comments about footwork too.

Here's something I filmed a while ago - but it's kind of a similar application, so it might be useful to contrast this with your application, and I'm not so worried about not moving my feet:

Image

From the form:

Image
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:05 am

wayne hansen wrote:No I can see at least two parts that are missing
And the rest lacks structure


I agree that there are some bits lacking there. Here's the man himself, what do you think?

Image

Again for reference, Adam Mizner's old clip.

Image
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:21 am

GrahamB wrote:Nice clip Oriagami. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you!. You're welcome.

Here's something I filmed a while ago - but it's kind of a similar application, so it might be useful to contrast this with your application, and I'm not so worried about not moving my feet:

Image

From the form:

Image


Throwing to that side I almost always have to at least pivot my feet, otherwise it's just risking knee damage IMO.

That looks like what I'd call Brush Knee and Twist Step, same in yours?

I've recently been working on something similar but instead of applying the lifting on the same arm, doing it cross-body. ON the arm seems like a good idea!

Both of my feet pivot to follow the action. From yesterday:
Image

Not perfect yet, lol. This was last week:
Image

What I didn't catch on video yesterday was the time I did it and my partner went down too hard so I stepped over him to catch his fall and popped my damn knee out of joint again.
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