Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:02 am

Yes, that's Brush Knee Twist step - our form is somewhere between Yang and Sun on that app. I made a blog post comparing how it is done in various styles, based off this thread:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... omparison/

It's interesting to compare it with the Chen version.

Watching your clips I think you need to learn to let go of people you are throwing away - you're trying to hold on to them and it's dragging you down ;D

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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby charles on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:07 am

oragami_itto wrote:Both of my feet pivot to follow the action. From yesterday:
Image

Not perfect yet, lol. This was last week:
Image


In both of these you are off-balance and using brute force to try to force an ineffective application to work.

With well-performed applications of this sort one should be entirely in balance and should not have to exert much force. "Four ounces" is about leverage/mechanical advantage. "Invest in loss" is about not trying to "win" or muscle-through ineffective actions. Instead, it is about ensuring that one does not violate basic principles of the art while one figures out how to successfully accomplish actions using those basic principles. As a guiding principle of practice, if a Taijiquan application/action you apply causes you to unbalance yourself, you've done it wrong.

If you continue to practice in this way, substantial improvement will likely take a very long time, if it occurs at all. To improve, one has to practice the right thing the right way. To do that in "finite time", that requires a skilled teacher who can show one how to do so and introduce methods that aren't intuitive and that one isn't likely to come up with on one's own. While partner work is important, "sharing" with others of a similar level of knowledge and skill isn't a replacement.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:12 am

I sincerely thank you for your concern. I always strive to improve.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:52 am

Charles- you sound like a proper Confucian gentleman. ;)

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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby charles on Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:25 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Both of my feet pivot to follow the action. From yesterday:
Image


I watched this again.

Try the following "subtle" modification to what you are doing.

Instead of pushing down with your left hand on your partner's right shoulder/upper arm, place your left palm flat on top of his right elbow joint. You thumb on the inside of his arm - but not grabbing or wrapped around his arm - your palm flat on top of his elbow joint. You aren't grabbing his arm, just putting your hand on top of his elbow joint. Keeping contact particularly on the outside of your left palm (along the ring finger/palm edge) rotate your palm counterclockwise against the outside of his elbow joint while pushing down, drawing inwards (towards you) and a little towards the centre. Done correctly, this action twists his entire arm, pulls on his right shoulder and bends his spine to his right. Simultaneously, with your right hand, lift upwards, away from you and about 45 degrees to your left under his left upper arm. Doing so, you have two opposing actions/forces, "a couple". One hand twists (spirals) downwards, towards you and to your right while the other hand twists (spirals) upwards, away from you and to your left. Your waist will turn towards your left, though your hips do not need to turn. No weight shift is necessary or repositioning of the feet. It is an example of "separating/distinguishing yin and yang" with different parts of the body doing different things and moving in different directions, though the motions are coordinated, just not all in the same direction.

The above action won't look that much different from what you are doing in the GIF, but will have a very different result on the partner and, once you get the actions right, takes relatively little force. Try it, see what happens.

The above actions are examples of "drawing", "pulling" or "reeling" silk - or one can just call it "twisting". That twisting is the key to getting many of these sorts of applications to work. In Chen style, in the example above, the actions are described as the left hand performing "shun chan si", the right hand "ni chan si". Nearly every action in Chen style is "circular" with half of the circle "shun" twisting, the other half "ni" twisting. Open and close simultaneously moves the hands/arms inwards and outwards to create the helical ("spiral") action. The contrary helical actions feel to an opponent like they are caught inbetween two meshing gears.
Last edited by charles on Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:29 pm

I can't win this one if I point out what Huang is doing wrong you just say but this is the master
I see an old man soon to die doing pushing one day when it was filmed with a slight young girl
The same parts are missing
My knowledge of this exercise comes from a time when he was trying hard to pass on things in a correct manner
I am not sure that was his aIm in his latter years
By that time he knew who would get it and who were just there to make up the numbers
I know by what is shown on this thread that some here just don't get it
Just let me ask ,what puts his right hand outside his opponents right hand
What puts your left hand inside his right wrist
What puts you in the position to push
What guards against his right elbow stroke
In push when and where do you push with either hand
How and when do you neutralise those pushes
This is not one cooperative pushing exercises it is numerous probing attacks and rebuffs
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 pm

I wrote my response before seeing what Charles wrote
What I think he is saying is
He is saying don't just grab and yank
See the various parts within the exercise
Where your opponent wraps his arm around your neck should not be possible when the exercise is done in the right manner
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:16 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I can't win this one if I point out what Huang is doing wrong you just say but this is the master
I see an old man soon to die doing pushing one day when it was filmed with a slight young girl
The same parts are missing
My knowledge of this exercise comes from a time when he was trying hard to pass on things in a correct manner
I am not sure that was his aIm in his latter years
By that time he knew who would get it and who were just there to make up the numbers
I know by what is shown on this thread that some here just don't get it
Just let me ask ,what puts his right hand outside his opponents right hand
What puts your left hand inside his right wrist
What puts you in the position to push
What guards against his right elbow stroke
In push when and where do you push with either hand
How and when do you neutralise those pushes
This is not one cooperative pushing exercises it is numerous probing attacks and rebuffs


When the only prize is knowledge, who is losing? I'm just trying to get more info about the exercise. As i see what Huang is doing and as Adam mizner teaches it in his online course (as far as i can follow at least) there are the following attacks.

A pushes b arm
B neutralizes to side and pulls A's arm
A neutralizes pull, B attacks A's ribs with elbow
A intercepts and neutralizes elbow stroke with left hand
B gets under hook and plucks, A neutralizes
B pushes A's arm

So what more is there that isn't covered there?
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I wrote my response before seeing what Charles wrote
What I think he is saying is
He is saying don't just grab and yank
See the various parts within the exercise
Where your opponent wraps his arm around your neck should not be possible when the exercise is done in the right manner


I definitely agree. Where his arm gets in my face was the second time i tried this particular technique where it worked at all. I'm not sure exactly why it happened there but it's worked without that happening since then so i just be doing something cleaner.

I'm really not strong enough to pull it off by brute Force, if the timing and leverage is not right, they don't move. When it is right i am not using much muscle at all. It just looks violent and forceful. The slowing effect of the gif conversion may make it seem like more of a struggle is happening in the other. I'm bending to help him keep his grip on my wrist to keep from falling.

These aren't cooperative exercises though, they're just moments from free push hands. I expect imperfections. The particular throw in those is just something i discovered in playing two weekends ago that I'm trying out on partners.

I gotta get what i can get, from instruction to training partners, and have to work within the boundaries they find comfortable. On the whole i seem to be getting better than i was before so the approach is working imo. Always looking for pointers, teachers, and practice partners tho so definitely hit me up when you're in Texas.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby charles on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:43 pm

wayne hansen wrote:He is saying don't just grab and yank


Thank you: a good summary.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:16 pm

I am just pointing out that what you think is not force others might not
The reason I remarked is that it is the duty of those who have been taught in another manner to point to the difference
I just don't want people to think these are the high levels in the art
Keep searching I am sure there are better sources over there
Texas or even the states are not anywhere I wish to go so I won't be dropping by anytime soon
You have most of the steps outlined in your summary they are just not shown in the clips
Try working the exercise from single hand circle attacking with elbow full power
When your opponent can neutralise your elbow you neutralise his pluck on your elbow to get the chop in
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:33 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I am just pointing out that what you think is not force others might not
The reason I remarked is that it is the duty of those who have been taught in another manner to point to the difference
I just don't want people to think these are the high levels in the art
Keep searching I am sure there are better sources over there
Texas or even the states are not anywhere I wish to go so I won't be dropping by anytime soon
You have most of the steps outlined in your summary they are just not shown in the clips
Try working the exercise from single hand circle attacking with elbow full power
When your opponent can neutralise your elbow you neutralise his pluck on your elbow to get the chop in


Fair enough. I can only speak from the perspective of my current level of understanding. I never claimed to have a high level in anything, just practicing and cultivating and playing. Making these gifs is fun and very educational regarding spotting habits and errors. The added gift of your high level eyes providing further insight is just gravy.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:43 pm

Piss in the other pocket this one is full
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:08 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Piss in the other pocket this one is full


No, i mean it. I respect your knowledge and experience and the time you've put into your art . I welcome and appreciate any input you have on anything i show.
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Re: Duran Mack, London HME Affiliate — Working the pluck

Postby everything on Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:25 pm

What did this "application" feel like when you did it?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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