Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

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Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby marvin8 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:52 pm

Meraz Ahmed
Published on Mar 3, 2019:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-_sWkWO55I
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:27 pm

Good stuff
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:25 am

I liked the clip. Good instruction, to the point.

So I found this one that I really don’t like. Practice from “Sam Tam system”, one of those many bouncing yourself away from a wall methods. This kind of practice builds very bad habits and is one of those techniques deceptive teachers use to teach their students to overact and push themselves away. You can easily understand that to get this effect you must give up your own root completely when you push, something you absolutely don’t want to do when you push against someone else.

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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:29 am

Don't care much for the demo.
Don't agree with some of the post as to what is happening and why.

Another poster on another site posted this, felt it explained my thoughts on this better than I could.

"You have to consider this as a dynamic process. To make sense of it you also have to think of the ball as NOT a point particle, so it has a centre of gravity, probably in its actual centre.

As the surface of the ball impacts the wall the centre of gravity slows down, which means its momentum drops. (It also means that the wall or the ball or both must deform during the impact) Newton's second law requires that momentum can only change if there is an external force applied and this comes from the wall.


This force increases from zero as the impact proceeds, it is exerted in the opposite direction of the balls motion. At some point the momentum will reach zero, but the force is still there and still directed outwards so now it begins to accelerate the ball's centre of gravity back in the opposite direction. "
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:38 am

Continued:

"Now it is true that Newton3 requires that throughout this process the ball is exerting an equal and opposite force on the wall but the point here is that these two forces are exerted on DIFFERENT objects. So the force of the ball on the wall acts to try and increase the momentum of the wall (if it was somehow moveable it would accelerate away from the impact). For a fixed wall the force goes to make some deformation of the wall (bending it / making a dent in it etc.)

If both objects are perfectly elastic, meaning they return to their original shape once forces are removed, then the ball will rebound with exactly the same but opposite momentum it had before the impact. If either object is permanently deformed in the impact, the ball will rebound with less momentum."
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby charles on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:40 am

In my opinion, a mixed bag. He is well spoken, but talks all around what he is actually doing. He speaks of “verticality” but doesn’t really tell people what that means in physical actions. (One can see his store and release in his lower back.) much of what he is doing in the latter half of the video is what Mike Sigman (more explicitly) taught in the ‘90’s as “ground path”, and towards the end of the video he calls it that. Whether or not that is what one wants to do is s different discussion.

He discusses/demonstrates a little the idea of interupting/disrupting an opponent’s action mid action. That was discussed a bit here recently in a different thread. There is value in it, but was tossed in amoungst a shot gun blast of other things he presented in the video.

I think that what he shows is the stuff beginners are usually taught and is in large measure what keeps people at a beginner level: they start off with self-limiting concepts/actions and spend the rest of their Taiji days trying to better do what they were first shown and only works against other beginners. I don’t think what he has shown there will lead a student to the higher level skills for which Taiji was famous.

I don’t see any value in the practice shown in the second video.

Just my opinion.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:43 am

:-\
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:05 am

charles wrote:I think that what he shows is the stuff beginners are usually taught and is in large measure what keeps people at a beginner level: they start off with self-limiting concepts/actions and spend the rest of their Taiji days trying to better do what they were first shown and only works against other beginners. I don’t think what he has shown there will lead a student to the higher level skills for which Taiji was famous.


Good points. But I don't fully understand why it needs to be limiting. You need to start somewhere. For instructing a class though it might be too much at a time. Better to break it down, focus on one aspect at a time and combine later.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby nicklinjm on Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:26 pm

Thought the OP video was pretty good for what it is, explaining some v basic taiji concepts (and he is definitely talking about ground path for the last 2-3 mins).

@Charles - would be very interested if you could explain a bit more on why you think the way he talks about the concepts in the video is self-limiting.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby charles on Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:36 pm

nicklinjm wrote:@Charles - would be very interested if you could explain a bit more on why you think the way he talks about the concepts in the video is self-limiting.


It's a deep rabbit hole. I'm not sure how deep I want to go down it.

Let me attempt it in simple terms and broad brush strokes. Everyone who's ever studied Taijiquan knows we're supposed to do something with Yin and Yang, something about distinguishing one from the other, separating one from the other... Not many practitioners have an explicit method for doing that. Some say things like, "If the palm is facing this way, it is Yin and if the palm is facing that way, it is Yang... so one is Yin and the other is Yang..." That doesn't mean much practical when working with an uncooperative/semi-cooperative partner.

If one pulls on one's partner, the partner can either resist or follow/be dragged in the direction of the pull. If the partner resists - opposing with an oppositely directed force, whomever is stronger wins. It is a tug of war. As I learned it, that isn't any of the principles of Taijiquan, that the stronger one wins. If the partner follows the direction of the pull, it is easy for the partner to simple push in the direction of your pull, overwhelming you as you pull. Again, this isn't one of the principles of Taijiquan, that I apply force to an opponent who then adds to my force to overcome me. Similar things happen if one pushes one's opponent, instead of pulling. The "error" is there is no distinguishing yin from yang: all of one's actions are in one direction, be it a push or a pull. Pulling while rotating to the side is a minor variation: all of one's actions are still rotating in one direction towards one direction. This is what is demonstrated in the video. It is also what most beginners are taught as neutralization/yielding: recede - everything moving to the rear - while turning everything in one direction. It works on beginners. It doesn't, generally, work on anyone who doesn't know the game - that I'm going to recede and turn and you are supposed to passively keep pushing as you were - or is beyond a beginner level.

If you've followed my description thus far - and agree that that isn't the stuff of high-level skills - the obvious question, then, is what should one be doing to be "effective"? THAT is the $10k question. Until one arrives at that question, one continues to do the beginner-level stuff of pulling while turning. If your partner goes along with the "rules" of that particular game, everyone is happy and it seems "effective". When your partner doesn't do what the rules say he's supposed to do, and either walks right through your "gate", or shoulder-strikes you in the middle of your chest, knocking you 10 feet away on your rear, you're surprised 'cause it's always worked before and that's what you were taught to do as neutralization - it's what you were taught as the application for "Roll Back".
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby everything on Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:35 pm

roll back as one is taught as a beginner ime works exactly the same in judo, bjj, etc.. dunno about striking. but you have to learn to deal with all the other situations, set up, etc.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby Trick on Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:43 pm

perfect union is the ultimate goal of taijiquan. perfect union - supreme ultimate. when reached that state one can choose to separate with for example an big haymaker(thats been practiced on a heavybag maybe) but then its not taiji anymore 8-)
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby GrahamB on Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:29 am

charles wrote:
nicklinjm wrote:@Charles - would be very interested if you could explain a bit more on why you think the way he talks about the concepts in the video is self-limiting.


It's a deep rabbit hole. I'm not sure how deep I want to go down it.

Let me attempt it in simple terms and broad brush strokes. Everyone who's ever studied Taijiquan knows we're supposed to do something with Yin and Yang, something about distinguishing one from the other, separating one from the other... Not many practitioners have an explicit method for doing that. Some say things like, "If the palm is facing this way, it is Yin and if the palm is facing that way, it is Yang... so one is Yin and the other is Yang..." That doesn't mean much practical when working with an uncooperative/semi-cooperative partner.

If one pulls on one's partner, the partner can either resist or follow/be dragged in the direction of the pull. If the partner resists - opposing with an oppositely directed force, whomever is stronger wins. It is a tug of war. As I learned it, that isn't any of the principles of Taijiquan, that the stronger one wins. If the partner follows the direction of the pull, it is easy for the partner to simple push in the direction of your pull, overwhelming you as you pull. Again, this isn't one of the principles of Taijiquan, that I apply force to an opponent who then adds to my force to overcome me. Similar things happen if one pushes one's opponent, instead of pulling. The "error" is there is no distinguishing yin from yang: all of one's actions are in one direction, be it a push or a pull. Pulling while rotating to the side is a minor variation: all of one's actions are still rotating in one direction towards one direction. This is what is demonstrated in the video. It is also what most beginners are taught as neutralization/yielding: recede - everything moving to the rear - while turning everything in one direction. It works on beginners. It doesn't, generally, work on anyone who doesn't know the game - that I'm going to recede and turn and you are supposed to passively keep pushing as you were - or is beyond a beginner level.

If you've followed my description thus far - and agree that that isn't the stuff of high-level skills - the obvious question, then, is what should one be doing to be "effective"? THAT is the $10k question. Until one arrives at that question, one continues to do the beginner-level stuff of pulling while turning. If your partner goes along with the "rules" of that particular game, everyone is happy and it seems "effective". When your partner doesn't do what the rules say he's supposed to do, and either walks right through your "gate", or shoulder-strikes you in the middle of your chest, knocking you 10 feet away on your rear, you're surprised 'cause it's always worked before and that's what you were taught to do as neutralization - it's what you were taught as the application for "Roll Back".


So, using your logic, there would be no point in engaging in any training drill ever, since the human brain is apparently incapable of separating a training drill from the reality of fighting a resisting opponent in a confrontation?
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby charles on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:50 am

everything wrote:roll back as one is taught as a beginner ime works exactly the same in judo, bjj, etc..


That's exactly my point.

The starting premise is that Taijiquan is "different" than judo, bjj, etc. Meraz reiterates that in the video stating that how one uses the body is different, that one needs to first create one's instrument before learning how to play it. In one's Taijiquan training, if one interacts with a partner/opponent the same way as one would in training judo, bjj..., it should come as no surprise to anyone that the skills one develops are the same as or similar to those other arts: train the same, end up with the same results. If one ended up in the same place, why bother with all the esoterica of Taijiquan? Why not just train more explicit, more expedient ways to end up at the same place?

Either the starting premise is valid, and one trains differently to develop different skills, or the starting premise is invalid and one can dispense with all the esoterica and just get on with it. To claim it is different and then train it like any other art is to fool oneself.
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Re: Meraz Taiji 2019 V Yielding 1 — Full

Postby Trick on Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:51 pm

charles wrote:. To claim it is different and then train it like any other art is to fool oneself.

+ a couple of times 8-)
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