Chen Zheng Lei Fa Jing

[Bob]

Chen Zheng Lei is, IMO, one of the few "masters" that progessively better in flavor as he got older. When he was younger, he never really caught my eye [of course maybe I couldn't see well either] but as he gets older, his flavor becomes more and more appealing. He has become a real favorite of mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KS_VZm4QWs

[middleway]

I would like to see this hitting something, a heavy bad or a guy with a pad or something, its got some real pop.

Chen style is funny, you see fa jing demo's n stuff pushing hands and sometimes some chinna n SJ but I have never seen a clip of striking usage in the art actually hitting anything.

Cheers
Chris

[Andy_S]

Chris:

You make a good point. A few comments:

(1) In the wide spectrum of MA, Taiji in particular and TCMA in general does not attract the kind of headbangers who want to glove up and mix it up.

(2) Taiji tends to fixate on PH, rather than out-of-contact sparring. This is entirely fitted with its fighting strategy and tactics, but is, IMHO, a problem, as one needs to learn to enter, bridge and apply, rather than simply apply from contact.

(3) However: Ask and you will receive. I have been banged around (with reluctance on his part; he really is not into apps) by Chen Xiaoxing, and (with greater enthusiam) by his son, Chen Ziqiang. In the village this summer, I was doing some PH with Chen XQ. He was being very gentle so I asked to "sample" his shoulder strike. He gave me a reasonably hard one, but I must have looked unimpressed, as he then pulled me in, while simultaneously stepping in and kao-ing - sending me flying on my arse about 15 feet. When I bounced up, he looked like he was ready to up the ante once again, so I made the appropriate noises - ie "Thanks, I'm convinced! - which I was. The lad can hit.

(4) Moreover, I am not sure that your comments on PH and qinna are irrelevant to fajing. IHMO and IME, combative Taiji should be a seamless interface between striking and grappling. If you accept this, much of the fajing is applied in the clinch - eg elbow and shoulder shots, and they can be applied as joint breaks or shocks to the torse or head, rather than per se "hits" from out of range/contact. The clip of Chen Yu posted on this thread shows very nice usage of this.

(5) All that having been said: IME and from what I hear from my friends, many of the older masters (Chen XW, Chen Xiaoxing, Chen Zhenglei) are very, very conservative in combative teaching. Frankly, I think this is because their training in the village did not really encompass much in the way of fighting - in the 60s, 70s and 80s, there was not much of a combatives scene in China - and they have no experience in sanda, MT, kickboxing, etc, which the current generation do (at the Chen Village Taiji school, there is a Shaolin Coach who also teacehs sanda) and so are not comfortable in that range: they stick to what they know. And guess what? Most of their students are very happy paying a lot of money for a seminar on silk reeling, form, a couple of app demos and some fajing done in air. Personally, I am not - but that's just me; I am probably not representatvie of the average Taiji chap.

(6) The times they are a changing. The younger generation is more open about and interested in the combative aspects of the art, and I think this is about time/era as about people. Chen Yu in Beijing and in Chen Bing and Chen Ziqiang in the village are teaching more combatively than their previous generations. The last 'real' Taiji combat generation died with Chen Fake and Chen Zhaopei, who both fought in Beijing in the early 20th century. Very, very clearly, Taiji as a fighting art was in the doldrums in the mid- and late-20th century - this, I think, is why so many Taiiji peeps are shocked at the modern Henan style PH competition, which they equate with crude wrestling. In light of most 20th century, Taiji, it is: PH has customarily been seen as a gentle game of push and pull, offbalancing and students flying away at touch. Unfortunately, nobody seems able to reproduce these amazing skills when someone is actually competing or going full force. Anyway, my point is that we may be at the beginning of a renaissance: A new era of more combative Chen Taiji may be dawning.

[Josealb]

Hmm....Felipe....is this the Chen guy that i think he is?

[middleway]

thanks for the response Andy,

for the record

Moreover, I am not sure that your comments on PH and qinna are irrelevant to fajing.

I didnt say that Fa jing was irrelevant these things, just that i had never seen striking usage.

Taiji tends to fixate on PH, rather than out-of-contact sparring. This is entirely fitted with its fighting strategy and tactics, but is, IMHO, a problem, as one needs to learn to enter, bridge and apply, rather than simply apply from contact.

Sure, i think this is another thing that is missing from the demonstrations, how to get contact in the first place. Starting from Push hands is all very well and good for a specific training purpose, but thats not how combat starts. When someone's trying to take your head off, even in sparring, making calm contact into the range where you can apply the sensitivity and control the centre of the opponent isnt so easy. The best guy i have seen doing this is without a doubt Master Sam Chin.

best regards

Chris

[Andy_S]

Jose:

What's with the cryptic messaging? Kindly spill the beans...enquiring minds wanna know.

Chris:

All agreed.

[Overlord]

Chen Zheng Lei is, IMO, one of the few "masters" that progessively better in flavor as he got older. When he was younger, he never really caught my eye [of course maybe I couldn't see well either] but as he gets older, his flavor becomes more and more appealing. He has become a real favorite of mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KS_VZm4QWs

Tuo diao tuo diao, let us get naked.....doing chen taiji??

[Josealb]

Heh, sorry Andy. Its nothing worth mentioning, really...just that i mix up the names of taichi folk and we were talking about them one time. No big deal.

[Overlord]

Real fajing dont shake, the force went thru!

[Bhassler]

Chen style is funny, you see fa jing demo's n stuff pushing hands and sometimes some chinna n SJ but I have never seen a clip of striking usage in the art actually hitting anything.

I think this has to do with marketing-- they want the demos to have the visual flavor of their particular art. Not everybody has a fajin set, or push hands, but most arts will hit stuff. Also, if the master hits stuff, then that would imply that the STUDENTS should hit stuff, and after a couple of sprained wrists all the hippies will sign up for xing yi classes, and the pussification of xing yi would be sad, indeed. So really, if you want to know why they don't hit stuff in demos, the answer is because if they do Filipe will kick their asses.

My experience of Chen taiji is pretty different from Andy's and I guess most people's on the interweb as well. I've felt my teacher's strike, and I can say that one of the major reasons he doesn't hit me is that I will break if he does, and then he will get in trouble with his wife, and no one wants that....